How early?

Most of what we have spoken of in Strategy mode tends to involve more complex organizations, such as tribes. However, it must be remembered that pack animals, like wolves, will often have complex strategies when hunting prey. Also, meercats have their own systems of guards watching out for predators while others get food, and ants and termites and other hive insects have many jobs within the species. Therefore, it is clear sapience is not required to develop basic organization.

maybe strategy mode starts once creatures learn how to cooperate. and if your creature doesn't learn to cooperate, then it will never become sapient.

which begs the question, how/when does a strategy mode game start? does the game just start out with a blank slate planet, and run simulations and auto-evo until your selected creature develops cooperation?

toxiciron wrote:

maybe strategy mode starts once creatures learn how to cooperate. and if your creature doesn't learn to cooperate, then it will never become sapient.

which begs the question, how/when does a strategy mode game start? does the game just start out with a blank slate planet, and run simulations and auto-evo until your selected creature develops cooperation?

You would use Org Mode.

Well, you could use Strat Mode, but as you could only control one organism it would be near-useless.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

toxiciron wrote:

maybe strategy mode starts once creatures learn how to cooperate. and if your creature doesn't learn to cooperate, then it will never become sapient.

which begs the question, how/when does a strategy mode game start? does the game just start out with a blank slate planet, and run simulations and auto-evo until your selected creature develops cooperation?

You would use Org Mode.

Well, you could use Strat Mode, but as you could only control one organism it would be near-useless.

Not quite. You could tell it to carry out some tasks you would do, but you wouldn't have to do those things for it.

It would be useful for if you wanted to check out the world that you had discovered thus far, without delaying your creature's actions.

Well once you get to strategy cant you switch back to ORG mode any way?

Technically (-->Technically<---) You are in strategy once you become multicellular...

But as for more complex creatures, perhaps you begin by communicating with other members of your species (Induced with the behavior editor + communication organs ie voicebox, body language, light display).

At this level co-operation would have to be controlled by the player, maybe by pressing buttons, moving in a certain fashion or actions to communicate between the creatures.
Eventually this could develop into more complicated actions such as having to switch between creatures (Yeah kinda vague, im thinking along the lines of Mass effect)

Soon enough you could control them like an RTS.

InvaderZim wrote:

US_of_Alaska wrote:

toxiciron wrote:

maybe strategy mode starts once creatures learn how to cooperate. and if your creature doesn't learn to cooperate, then it will never become sapient.

which begs the question, how/when does a strategy mode game start? does the game just start out with a blank slate planet, and run simulations and auto-evo until your selected creature develops cooperation?

You would use Org Mode.

Well, you could use Strat Mode, but as you could only control one organism it would be near-useless.

Not quite. You could tell it to carry out some tasks you would do, but you wouldn't have to do those things for it.

It would be useful for if you wanted to check out the world that you had discovered thus far, without delaying your creature's actions.

I think you misunderstood. I meant the one organism you control is the same organism you control in Org Mode. So it would be "you".

@Pezzalis: It's going to be tricky to phase communication in the game... Maybe just interacting with your own species in some way should eventually give you 'advanced communication', which is the equivalent of language in humans.

For simple strategies (pack-hunters and simple tribes), only Org. mode should be used. There should be a simple menu where you would give simple orders (flank left, charge, etc.). I know animals/tribes really didn't knew that on Earth, but it's the only way I can see without Strategy mode.


By the way, I think Strategy mode should not be available until you have something to command. It has a bird's eye view that bring a huge advantage, and it doesn't really make sense to command a single unit (have you ever gave an order to yourself ? "Me, go to kitchen and bring me some food!")

So can you access strategy mode in cell stage, or at least when they develop chemicals that can be made to communicate?

The Uteen wrote:

So can you access strategy mode in cell stage, or at least when they develop chemicals that can be made to communicate?

Wouldn't the control of different cells through chemical signals classify you as an organism comprised of all the cells?

Commander Keen wrote:

For simple strategies (pack-hunters and simple tribes), only Org. mode should be used. There should be a simple menu where you would give simple orders (flank left, charge, etc.). I know animals/tribes really didn't knew that on Earth, but it's the only way I can see without Strategy mode.


By the way, I think Strategy mode should not be available until you have something to command. It has a bird's eye view that bring a huge advantage, and it doesn't really make sense to command a single unit (have you ever gave an order to yourself ? "Me, go to kitchen and bring me some food!")

The thing is then we have the problem of all of a sudden dumping this whole new Mode onto people's laps. Doesn't seem very seamless transition if you ask me.

And Uteen, i think Xeno is right.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

Commander Keen wrote:

By the way, I think Strategy mode should not be available until you have something to command. It has a bird's eye view that bring a huge advantage, and it doesn't really make sense to command a single unit (have you ever gave an order to yourself ? "Me, go to kitchen and bring me some food!")

The thing is then we have the problem of all of a sudden dumping this whole new Mode onto people's laps. Doesn't seem very seamless transition if you ask me.

Maybe it should be already unlocked, but not allow control of your creature until you have another organism that is intelligent enough to understand (ie. not wolves).

I thought you could control packs of non-sentient organisms, or even just cells, without them being able to use complex communication... I'm sure this mode was supposed to be like the RTS style of gameplay, it was used in most of our examples of civilisation stages, but it could be used in any part of the game that you wanted to get an RTS feel in.

But now they have to be able to communicate through speech or a similar way? Isn't that restricting the mode a bit? And only using it from tribal onwards (as the main and best type of gameplay method for these stages) makes the game sound a lot too much like Spore to me... What would you prefer on the back of the game box?

Play in organism mode, controlling your own little (or giant!) organism as it ventures through its own world!
Play in strategy mode, controlling your entire population, using the RTS style of gameplay, to add a bit of fun and variety to your journey to THRIVATION!

Or......

Play in organism mode, controlling your own little (or giant!) organism as it ventures through its own world!
Play in strategy mode, controlling your entire population, using the RTS style of gameplay, to add a bit of fun and variety to your journey to THRIVATION***!

***Only once a complex form of language is developed because that is the most realistic thing possible! Sorry for any inconvenience to gameplay.

Can't we at least grant this one part of the gameplay that little bit of reality we sacrifice to make the game better?

The Uteen wrote:

I thought you could control packs of non-sentient organisms, or even just cells, without them being able to use complex communication...I'm sure this mode was supposed to be like the RTS style of gameplay, it was used in most of our examples of civilisation stages, but it could be used in any part of the game that you wanted to get an RTS feel in.

But in this case, you aren't the observing leader who issues orders, you are the leader who personally charges in front of his fellows. So, it just makes sense you are issuing basic orders in Org. mode.

The Uteen wrote:

But now they have to be able to communicate through speech or a similar way? Isn't that restricting the mode a bit? And only using it from tribal onwards (as the main and best type of gameplay method for these stages) makes the game sound a lot too much like Spore to me...

Maybe developed language isn't the right requirement, but it is on the right path. Do you want a stable leader position? Or understanding of basic tactics?

I know you want to get away from Spore as much as possible, but there are things Spore got semi-right. One of them is the division of packs and tribes. Sentient animals don't have enough situational awareness to give orders Strategy mode allows you to give.

The Uteen wrote:

What would you prefer on the back of the game box?

Luckily we won't have a gamebox...

The Uteen wrote:

Can't we at least grant this one part of the gameplay that little bit of reality we sacrifice to make the game better?

Exactly what I'm trying to do. Animals didn't have any form of orders to issue to other members of their packs, but I want to give them to player.

Alright! It seems i was vastly misunderstood. A species that has advanced communication is what i said. This includes species that:
- are hive-minded
- can give and understand orders
- other things i haven't yet thought of that are along the same lines

here is a good question. Imagine your species lived in groups like bufalos or so. You couldnt have much individual independence there right? so would you have the strategy mode there?



and this begs the question: how will the game know

eumesmo wrote:

here is a good question. Imagine your species lived in groups like bufalos or so. You couldnt have much individual independence there right? so would you have the strategy mode there?



and this begs the question: how will the game know

The thing is that even if your species behaviour is herded and somewhat co-dependant, as the player you could control your controlled organism to be otherwise. This would eventually lead to the rest of your species copying you, but being able to do things differently to the rest of your species is necessary for the player's actions to have an effect on evolution.

And that is a great question, that i don't know how to answer. I don't have enough technical knowledge to really know what needs to be done here.

i saw a interesting documentary once ago, about how humans still keep residual behaviours of that heard-like action.

they drew a large circle in the ground, and said for 30 people to walk around it as they wished. then they said to two of them to start walking in smaller circles after a bit, but the other 28 knew not the other 2 would do that

the interesting thing is that after the first persons started moving, everyone walked in the same way, and when they started walking in smaller circles the others folowed and made the mistake unknowingly. furthermore, when not having those stimulous, they walked in a way that was much related to the one seen in a heard of alimals like cows.



birds prefer to walk instead of flying, even at 90 degrees angles, when flying would be less tiring, that is a leftover of the dinassaur brain in which flight wasnt that good (no wings)

eumesmo wrote:

i saw a interesting documentary once ago, about how humans still keep residual behaviours of that heard-like action.

they drew a large circle in the ground, and said for 30 people to walk around it as they wished. then they said to two of them to start walking in smaller circles after a bit, but the other 28 knew not the other 2 would do that

the interesting thing is that after the first persons started moving, everyone walked in the same way, and when they started walking in smaller circles the others folowed and made the mistake unknowingly. furthermore, when not having those stimulous, they walked in a way that was much related to the one seen in a heard of alimals like cows.



birds prefer to walk instead of flying, even at 90 degrees angles, when flying would be less tiring, that is a leftover of the dinassaur brain in which flight wasnt that good (no wings)

That's very interesting, eumesmo. But i still think that it is necessary for the player to have absolute control over their character.

indeed, i agree on that, what i mean is that if your species has that type of behaviour, you would excpect for them to folow you, or leave you to rotten out of the heard.


also, some trace traits of previous behaviours should also remain in a species Independent behaviour-

We could try to implement a hive mind character but how? Perhaps organism mode is still kind of like strategy mode in this case.

eumesmo wrote:

indeed, i agree on that, what i mean is that if your species has that type of behaviour, you would excpect for them to folow you, or leave you to rotten out of the heard.


also, some trace traits of previous behaviours should also remain in a species Independent behaviour-

Ah, okay. So maybe they'll follow you for a fixed distance or until you go near something that they class as dangerous?

And that's probably worth implementing somehow, yes.

@2creator: I think the easiest way to do this would be through use of Strategy Mode, just no Nation Editor.

well, if a sheep tried to swim in the croc infested waters they would either folow to their deaths or leav it to die, there is no middle point in heards, but it works as long as you dont add sapience into the hunters.... then they're belgiumed

but yes, in a heard or a hive the actions would be in strategy end, but you'd also need a way to make the behaviour changes that happen.