New Research Tree Concept

I read through the current Research Tree, and noticed that we need to make quite a few changes. First off, the current tree is based off a Tech Tree from a Civilization IV mod. While Tech Trees like these can be incredibly detailed, they are linear. There is only one way to progress through them, meaning there would be no technological diversity between civilizations. I don’t think a tree like this will work for Thrive, we need technological diversity. So here is my concept for a new Research Tree, one that will allow for diversity, without being too complicated.

Branches:
Available Research will be divided into Branches, these represent general subjects of research. The Research Tree starts off with three branches; Socialization, Interaction, and Reasoning. Things that branch off rom Socialization will deal with society and the arts, Interaction will mostly evolve into engineering, and Reasoning will become the sciences and mathematics. Each Branch contains a number of Inventions and one or two Major Discoveries, I will elaborate on these soon.

You will budget your Research Points between available branches, the more points put into a Branch the faster you will unlock new Branches, and increases the chances of unlocking Inventions. You can choose to completely ignore any Branch if you wish, but you can always go back and research it if you change your mind later on.

Inventions:
Inventions function as a sort of optional Sub-Research Tree that will introduce much diversity. They represent minor discoveries that don’t really deserve a Branch of their own, but still need to be represented in some form. The Inventions have a random chance of being discovered, this chance improves with the amount of RP being invested in the Branch and when related discoveries are made.
Inventions with prerequisites would have their chance of being discovered lowered to zero, until the prerequisite is discovered/developed.

Every Branch will contain a number of Inventions, with the number increasing the higher up the Research Tree you go. Discovering Inventions will unlock minor bonuses and improvements, and introduce new tech objects. This allows for diversity, as a Civilization won’t find every Invention. This also gives the player some options. Should they focus on acquiring every invention, or move on to stay ahead of the competition?

Major Discoveries:
Each Branch will have one or two Major Discoveries, discovering these unlock new Branches of Research. MDs will function much like Inventions, only with lower chances of being discovered. The chance of discovery will increase with every Invention from that Branch you discover. Or, you could also decide to focus on the MDs, and pass up on many of the Inventions. You would progress through the Research Tree faster but would miss out on many technologies, concepts, and bonuses as a result.

Tech Ages:

An idea I had for organizing the Research Tree, there would be twenty “Ages”, which you would progress through, starting once the species reaches sentience and ending after Ascension. The farther up the tree you go, the more Branches there will be to manage. They wouldn’t really have any impact in gameplay, it’s just a way of organizing the Tree.
Here is the list I have currently:

Spoiler:

Example:

Here is an example of what the Research Tree could look like, focusing on two of the initial Branches up until the "Iron Age":

Spoiler:

There is my concept so far, if you have any questions, comments, or any criticism feel free to post.

*Sigh*
This absolutely breaks my heart, because you've clearly put a shitton of work into this, but no. I agree that we need to work on technological diversity, but we've agreeded that we'll begin work on expanding our tree sideways once we hit space.

Also, Medieval translates to Middle Age. So you put down "Middle Age Age," followed by "Middle Age."

Tenebrarum wrote:

*Sigh*
This absolutely breaks my heart, because you've clearly put a shitton of work into this, but no. I agree that we need to work on technological diversity, but we've agreeded that we'll begin work on expanding our tree sideways once we hit space.

Before I put any real work at all into it, I talked with US_of_Alaska about the concept. He said he really liked the concept, and gave me the go ahead to develop it out more. He never mentioned anything about expanding the tree sideways later on, which I think is actually a pretty bad idea. You would still have to take a linear tree and make it not so, which would take more work the longer you fill it in a linear form.

Tenebrarum wrote:

Also, Medieval translates to Middle Age. So you put down "Middle Age Age," followed by "Middle Age."

I know, but I really didn't want to use the term "Dark Age" which is incredibly Earth history centric. I couldn't really think of anything better, "Early Middle Age" and Late Middle Age" sounded really lame.

Smothmoth wrote:

Before I put any real work at all into it, I talked with US_of_Alaska about the concept. He said he really liked the concept, and gave me the go ahead to develop it out more. He never mentioned anything about expanding the tree sideways later on, which I think is actually a pretty bad idea. You would still have to take a linear tree and make it not so, which would take more work the longer you fill it in a linear form.

Alright, could we merge the two?

Smothmoth wrote:

I know, but I really didn't want to use the term "Dark Age" which is incredibly Earth history centric. I couldn't really think of anything better, "Early Middle Age" and Late Middle Age" sounded really lame.

Well, I'd call the late Middle Ages the High Ages, if that makes any sense. They were in fact periods of massive theological, social, and scientific advancement.

I totally agree with a nonlinear tech tree. More of a "tech web".

Tenebrarum wrote:

Alright, could we merge the two?

I'm not really sure what you mean by this.

If you mean will the work done on the current Research Tree go to waste, then no. We would just have to organize the current list of researches into Major Discoveries and Inventions, and the rest of the data; effects, prerequisites, and descriptions will transfer over just fine.

Tenebrarum wrote:

Well, I'd call the late Middle Ages the High Ages, if that makes any sense. They were in fact periods of massive theological, social, and scientific advancement.

I've never heard the term High Ages used, but that would work just fine, thanks.

~sciocont wrote:

I totally agree with a nonlinear tech tree. More of a "tech web".

Yes, Tech-Web is actually a very good way to describe it.

~sciocont wrote:

I totally agree with a nonlinear tech tree. More of a "tech web".

I suggested that and you people outright refused D=<

As great as this would be, I don't see it actually working. If you see the current research tree, most research topics are closely interconnected with each other. You can't have anything more complex without mathemathics, for example. You can't advance the tree without researching roughly 50% of your Interaction and Reasoning branches.

Another suggestion: Tech cone?

The tech web sounds good, with different types of researches, but I don't think we should try to define the different ages, I think they should just sort of flow into each other... Anyway, we could merge the two by using this idea, but making sure every research and link in the current tree gets transferred across.

And Darkgamma's cone suggestion actually just gave me an idea... (Don't worry, I'm not copying you )
I'll make another thread for that, though. It's more visual than organisational.

Smothmoth wrote:

I read through the current Research Tree, and noticed that we need to make quite a few changes. First off, the current tree is based off a Tech Tree from a Civilization IV mod. While Tech Trees like these can be incredibly detailed, they are linear. There is only one way to progress through them, meaning there would be no technological diversity between civilizations. I don’t think a tree like this will work for Thrive, we need technological diversity. So here is my concept for a new Research Tree, one that will allow for diversity, without being too complicated.

Branches:
Available Research will be divided into Branches, these represent general subjects of research. The Research Tree starts off with three branches; Socialization, Interaction, and Reasoning. Things that branch off rom Socialization will deal with society and the arts, Interaction will mostly evolve into engineering, and Reasoning will become the sciences and mathematics. Each Branch contains a number of Inventions and one or two Major Discoveries, I will elaborate on these soon.

You will budget your Research Points between available branches, the more points put into a Branch the faster you will unlock new Branches, and increases the chances of unlocking Inventions. You can choose to completely ignore any Branch if you wish, but you can always go back and research it if you change your mind later on.

Inventions:
Inventions function as a sort of optional Sub-Research Tree that will introduce much diversity. They represent minor discoveries that don’t really deserve a Branch of their own, but still need to be represented in some form. The Inventions have a random chance of being discovered, this chance improves with the amount of RP being invested in the Branch and when related discoveries are made.
Inventions with prerequisites would have their chance of being discovered lowered to zero, until the prerequisite is discovered/developed.

Every Branch will contain a number of Inventions, with the number increasing the higher up the Research Tree you go. Discovering Inventions will unlock minor bonuses and improvements, and introduce new tech objects. This allows for diversity, as a Civilization won’t find every Invention. This also gives the player some options. Should they focus on acquiring every invention, or move on to stay ahead of the competition?

Major Discoveries:
Each Branch will have one or two Major Discoveries, discovering these unlock new Branches of Research. MDs will function much like Inventions, only with lower chances of being discovered. The chance of discovery will increase with every Invention from that Branch you discover. Or, you could also decide to focus on the MDs, and pass up on many of the Inventions. You would progress through the Research Tree faster but would miss out on many technologies, concepts, and bonuses as a result.

Tech Ages:

An idea I had for organizing the Research Tree, there would be twenty “Ages”, which you would progress through, starting once the species reaches sentience and ending after Ascension. The farther up the tree you go, the more Branches there will be to manage. They wouldn’t really have any impact in gameplay, it’s just a way of organizing the Tree.
Here is the list I have currently:

Spoiler:

Example:

Here is an example of what the Research Tree could look like, focusing on two of the initial Branches up until the "Iron Age":

Spoiler:

There is my concept so far, if you have any questions, comments, or any criticism feel free to post.

i love the many reasearch trees

Darkgamma wrote:

Another suggestion: Tech cone?

That's more or less what we have now, isn't it? The current tree is still far from being fully completed, and it there already are more researches further in the play.

Commander Keen wrote:

Darkgamma wrote:

Another suggestion: Tech cone?

That's more or less what we have now, isn't it? The current tree is still far from being fully completed, and it there already are more researches further in the play.

It doesn't matter what shape it takes, as long as we have all the connections. Basic topology.

Commander Keen wrote:

As great as this would be, I don't see it actually working. If you see the current research tree, most research topics are closely interconnected with each other. You can't have anything more complex without mathemathics, for example. You can't advance the tree without researching roughly 50% of your Interaction and Reasoning branches.

With the current tree, everything is interconnected, which is the problem. You have to research 100% of the Researches to reach the end. That means there is no technological diversity, as every civilization would be going through the same linear tree.

With my non-linear tree concept the Branches would still be interconnected to a degree, but the Inventions would allow for diversity. It also allows for some Branches to eventually dead end, like Cavalry for example.

The Uteen wrote:

The tech web sounds good, with different types of researches, but I don't think we should try to define the different ages, I think they should just sort of flow into each other...

The Tech Ages are just a way to visually organize the tree, they would have no impart on gameplay at all.

The Uteen wrote:

Anyway, we could merge the two by using this idea, but making sure every research and link in the current tree gets transferred across.

Keeping the current links entirely intact would defeat the purpose of having a non-linear tree. Most of the current work can be transfered over, but some things are going to have to be rethought.

Commander Keen wrote:

That's more or less what we have now, isn't it? The current tree is still far from being fully completed, and it there already are more researches further in the play.

The current tree is a strait line, as seen here:

Spoiler:

This is the Civ 5 Tech Tree, which is basically the same as the Civ IV mod the current Research Tree is based on. While very detailed, you have to research everything to reach the end.

As has been said, i approve of converting the current research list into a research web. It will really only affect the prerequisite researches and the nature of some researches. For instance, the wheel will become an invention that may be discovered much later than one would expect. The Strategy Mode Team will need to get on converting the document if this is agreed upon. Keen, i am basically just waiting for you to say this is a good idea and we will go with it.

I've already done some work on converting the current document, for the example, I can reorganize it to be in a format similar to the current Research Tree document.

Let me know if I should start on that.

The main concern I have is the research web's ingame readability. While I have seen most sorts of tech trees in games, I've seen such a web only once, and it wasn't working well. Could you please post some examples of how it would look in the game?

Quote :

With the current tree, everything is interconnected, which is the problem. You have to research 100% of the Researches to reach the end. That means there is no technological diversity, as every civilization would be going through the same linear tree.

In that case, it doesn't matter if it's a tree, web, or sphere, but what researches we have and how are they connected. Right now, most of the researches are those that allowed technology to move forward. You can't advance much without the wheel, mathematics or engines. There would have to be a lot more smaller researches that don't lead to anything (or any new branches). That's basically the Inventions, right?

Commander Keen wrote:

The main concern I have is the research web's ingame readability. While I have seen most sorts of tech trees in games, I've seen such a web only once, and it wasn't working well. Could you please post some examples of how it would look in the game?

Yes, if we don't lay it out right a tech-web could look really confusing. I've never really seen one used before though, could you tell me which game you saw one in?

Commander Keen wrote:

In that case, it doesn't matter if it's a tree, web, or sphere, but what researches we have and how are they connected. Right now, most of the researches are those that allowed technology to move forward. You can't advance much without the wheel, mathematics or engines. There would have to be a lot more smaller researches that don't lead to anything (or any new branches). That's basically the Inventions, right?

Yes, you wouldn't get very far engineering wise if you never invent the wheel, but it wouldn't prevent you from developing philosophy. This is the flaw with the current tree, not researching something prevents you from getting completely unrelated researches that show up farther down the line.

And Yes, Inventions are basically minor researches that don't deserve their own branch.

Ok, I'm understanding this more and more. And I'm really liking it. remember, as keen said, it doesn't matter what shape it takes, only the connections matter.

~sciocont wrote:

Ok, I'm understanding this more and more. And I'm really liking it. remember, as keen said, it doesn't matter what shape it takes, only the connections matter.

Well, shape matters to some extent, since we cannot show a tree easily in web format. I'd suggest a blend of tech cone and web, specifically expanded and designed to fit the shape. And can someone please give me a valid link to Alaska's tech tree?

Darkgamma wrote:

can someone please give me a valid link to Alaska's tech tree?

Here

Finally. Thank you!

Darkgamma wrote:

~sciocont wrote:

Ok, I'm understanding this more and more. And I'm really liking it. remember, as keen said, it doesn't matter what shape it takes, only the connections matter.

Well, shape matters to some extent, since we cannot show a tree easily in web format. I'd suggest a blend of tech cone and web, specifically expanded and designed to fit the shape. And can someone please give me a valid link to Alaska's tech tree?

Shape only really matters in visualization, not in how it actually works. You're right that it would be hard to navigatte this in 2D

Okay, so I have done some thinking and come to the conclusion that this concept is absolutely excelent, allowing for truly unique and non-terran paths to ascention that will make for some absolutely beautifully alien races.

However, there is but one issue. There are many researches that cross over onto different sections of this, and would be nessicary for any number of advances. For example, the Scientific Method is an advance made in the Reasoning Branch fairly early on, but it is nessicary for late game advances in Interaction Branch.

Solutions?

Also, I actually rather like the organization of the Tech Ages, but feel that they are in fact rather useless in practice. We need only break up the Space Stage on the forum into a couple different stages and we should be good.

Tenebrarum wrote:

Okay, so I have done some thinking and come to the conclusion that this concept is absolutely excelent, allowing for truly unique and non-terran paths to ascention that will make for some absolutely beautifully alien races.

That was the idea, it would be very boring to have every alien civilization you run into be using the exact same technologies you did.

Tenebrarum wrote:

However, there is but one issue. There are many researches that cross over onto different sections of this, and would be nessicary for any number of advances. For example, the Scientific Method is an advance made in the Reasoning Branch fairly early on, but it is nessicary for late game advances in Interaction Branch.

Solutions?

I don't really think this is a problem, there would be some discoveries that are universal, and these would usually be major ones that have a branch and aren't a random invention. If a civilization doesn't get one of these, too bad for them. We have many tribal societies here on earth still, in game terms you could say they didn't make one of these universal discoveries. I don't see any problem with simulating this, its not like the player is going to skip on something like the scientific method.

Tenebrarum wrote:

Also, I actually rather like the organization of the Tech Ages, but feel that they are in fact rather useless in practice. We need only break up the Space Stage on the forum into a couple different stages and we should be good.

Like I said, its only a way of organizing the tree visually, I like having things broken into categories like that. If you want it organized differently, there should be other options.