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 city big enought

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Smothmoth
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PostSubject: Re: city big enought    Fri Jan 14, 2011 3:04 pm

Commander Keen wrote:

The wording you are using here is quite confusing. It seems that what you want is exactly the same as I want, but using the wording "buying districts" makes it look that you want to automatically assign the land to the city once the "buy district X" button is pressed.

Also, don't forget players will need to be able to place buildings independent of districts, such as some special buildings or city walls.

Yeah, I can be bad at explaining things, but that is what I want. I think that the player should be able to have control over things like this, it is a game after all. You should also be able to put it on autopilot, if you don't want to manage that. Here is how I see it working; in the city planner there will be a button that says "Create New District". You push that and select the district you want to create, then place it where you want it. It has to be unclaimed land and connected to another district or the city center, you can't just place it anywhere. That land will then be incorporated into the city, which takes time and costs money. You could also set the autopilot to do this, placing districts based on the cities needs automatically. Is what I mean clear now?

And yes, there would be special buildings that you don't build within City limits. Like large military bases, mining operations, and if you think about it farms.

Commander Keen wrote:

This is already handled by the work of Alaska. You can deploy people from the SC and command them like military units (though those settlers will probably be a huge squad of it's own).

Okay, good, it didn't really seem like it based on what people were saying here.
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PostSubject: Re: city big enought    Fri Jan 14, 2011 4:14 pm

Commander Keen wrote:
You could, but there would be HUUUGE problems with supplying and commuting to work (inter-system buses anyone?)
yes it would require a huge amount of resources but the bigger the city is going to be the more autonomus is going to be(if you create a planet that has all the required resources then you are not going to have huge problem)
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PostSubject: Re: city big enought    Fri Jan 14, 2011 4:49 pm

As to districts: Eh. I don't know. It all depends on how well implemented they are.

As to BUILD CITY HERE: As has been mentioned, you just build TOs and wait. More realistic.
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PostSubject: Re: city big enought    Fri Jan 14, 2011 4:55 pm

Tenebrarum wrote:

As to BUILD CITY HERE: As has been mentioned, you just build TOs and wait. More realistic.

For the first cities maybe, but you should be able to create your own cities at some point. How is sending settlers out to form new settlements not realistic?
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PostSubject: Re: city big enought    Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:01 pm

Smothmoth wrote:
Tenebrarum wrote:

As to BUILD CITY HERE: As has been mentioned, you just build TOs and wait. More realistic.

For the first cities maybe, but you should be able to create your own cities at some point. How is sending settlers out to form new settlements not realistic?
It is. That's exactly what I'm saying. You send out a few specialist from your SC to make a number of TOs. Heck, even if you don't tell them to the AI should do it automatically to allow for them trying to survive. Wait for it to get big enough, and it automatically becomes an SC.
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PostSubject: Re: city big enought    Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:03 pm

Tenebrarum wrote:

It is. That's exactly what I'm saying. You send out a few specialist from your SC to make a number of TOs. Heck, even if you don't tell them to the AI should do it automatically to allow for them trying to survive. Wait for it to get big enough, and it automatically becomes an SC.

Oh, okay, I misunderstood.
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PostSubject: Re: city big enought    Sat Jan 15, 2011 10:09 am

Zoning districts sounds okay, but it shouldn't be necessary. I think you said this could be made to happen, but I think zoning should be developed automatically, small areas being automatically zoned and built in in the suburbs as demand increases, and taller buildings (or underground if stronger gravity, or submarine extensions to them if it is a sea-faring city) in the city centers. I wont want to zone all the time.

And customised zoning would probably result in less productive SCs. I say this because if you leave it to supply and demand, there should be a good mix spread evenly all over the SC, so travelling distance would be reduced. If it was split in two, one half entirely offices, and the other entirely housing, people would have to travel on average half the distance of the SC, and so more travelling time, more citizens late to work, and so a negative bonus to productivity. I admit split in two is extreme, but people would generally make larger zones, and would not be as aware of demand.
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PostSubject: Re: city big enought    Sat Jan 15, 2011 12:20 pm

The Uteen wrote:
Zoning districts sounds okay, but it shouldn't be necessary. I think you said this could be made to happen, but I think zoning should be developed automatically, small areas being automatically zoned and built in in the suburbs as demand increases, and taller buildings (or underground if stronger gravity, or submarine extensions to them if it is a sea-faring city) in the city centers. I wont want to zone all the time.

And customised zoning would probably result in less productive SCs. I say this because if you leave it to supply and demand, there should be a good mix spread evenly all over the SC, so travelling distance would be reduced. If it was split in two, one half entirely offices, and the other entirely housing, people would have to travel on average half the distance of the SC, and so more travelling time, more citizens late to work, and so a negative bonus to productivity. I admit split in two is extreme, but people would generally make larger zones, and would not be as aware of demand.
your post is a bit confusing. buildings are automatically build or you build them
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PostSubject: Re: city big enought    Sat Jan 15, 2011 1:06 pm

The Uteen wrote:
Zoning districts sounds okay, but it shouldn't be necessary. I think you said this could be made to happen, but I think zoning should be developed automatically, small areas being automatically zoned and built in in the suburbs as demand increases, and taller buildings (or underground if stronger gravity, or submarine extensions to them if it is a sea-faring city) in the city centers. I wont want to zone all the time.

Yeah, it should be handled automatically if the player prefers it that way. Having options is never a bad thing.

The Uteen wrote:
And customised zoning would probably result in less productive SCs. I say this because if you leave it to supply and demand, there should be a good mix spread evenly all over the SC, so travelling distance would be reduced. If it was split in two, one half entirely offices, and the other entirely housing, people would have to travel on average half the distance of the SC, and so more travelling time, more citizens late to work, and so a negative bonus to productivity. I admit split in two is extreme, but people would generally make larger zones, and would not be as aware of demand.

You're over-complicating things, remember, this is a game.

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PostSubject: Re: city big enought    Sat Jan 15, 2011 2:55 pm

Smothmoth wrote:
The Uteen wrote:
Zoning districts sounds okay, but it shouldn't be necessary. I think you said this could be made to happen, but I think zoning should be developed automatically, small areas being automatically zoned and built in in the suburbs as demand increases, and taller buildings (or underground if stronger gravity, or submarine extensions to them if it is a sea-faring city) in the city centers. I wont want to zone all the time.

Yeah, it should be handled automatically if the player prefers it that way. Having options is never a bad thing.

The Uteen wrote:
And customised zoning would probably result in less productive SCs. I say this because if you leave it to supply and demand, there should be a good mix spread evenly all over the SC, so travelling distance would be reduced. If it was split in two, one half entirely offices, and the other entirely housing, people would have to travel on average half the distance of the SC, and so more travelling time, more citizens late to work, and so a negative bonus to productivity. I admit split in two is extreme, but people would generally make larger zones, and would not be as aware of demand.

You're over-complicating things, remember, this is a game.

i agree with him. traveling distance can be a problem.this is realistic .of course you should have ways to reduse it like bus or metro
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PostSubject: Re: city big enought    Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:23 pm

Smothmoth wrote:
The Uteen wrote:
Zoning districts sounds okay, but it shouldn't be necessary. I think you said this could be made to happen, but I think zoning should be developed automatically, small areas being automatically zoned and built in in the suburbs as demand increases, and taller buildings (or underground if stronger gravity, or submarine extensions to them if it is a sea-faring city) in the city centers. I wont want to zone all the time.

Yeah, it should be handled automatically if the player prefers it that way. Having options is never a bad thing.

The Uteen wrote:
And customised zoning would probably result in less productive SCs. I say this because if you leave it to supply and demand, there should be a good mix spread evenly all over the SC, so travelling distance would be reduced. If it was split in two, one half entirely offices, and the other entirely housing, people would have to travel on average half the distance of the SC, and so more travelling time, more citizens late to work, and so a negative bonus to productivity. I admit split in two is extreme, but people would generally make larger zones, and would not be as aware of demand.

You're over-complicating things, remember, this is a game.

QFT. We need to retain a sense of scale. Basically, if the average player can't determine how a process works by themself, it's best to simplify how it actually works in the game.

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PostSubject: Re: city big enought    Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:24 pm

bill2505 wrote:
i agree with him. traveling distance can be a problem.this is realistic .of course you should have ways to reduse it like bus or metro

Is it realistic? Sure, but it doesn't benefit gameplay and is just over-complicating something that should to be simple. We don't want city management to be as complicated as playing a game of Sim City, and not even Sim City simulates this kind of stuff.

From ~sciocont:
Remember our goals: simplicity, science, and playability. Keep them in mind always.

People are forgetting those two, we need to remember we are trying to make a game here. If our game isn't fun to play, whats the point in making it? I am saying we can't be realistic at all? No, but we need to find balance between science and playability/simplicity.


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PostSubject: Re: city big enought    Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:19 pm

Glad somebody's folowing that.

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PostSubject: Re: city big enought    Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:28 pm

Smothmoth wrote:
bill2505 wrote:
i agree with him. traveling distance can be a problem.this is realistic .of course you should have ways to reduse it like bus or metro

Is it realistic? Sure, but it doesn't benefit gameplay and is just over-complicating something that should to be simple. We don't want city management to be as complicated as playing a game of Sim City, and not even Sim City simulates this kind of stuff.

From ~sciocont:
Remember our goals: simplicity, science, and playability. Keep them in mind always.

People are forgetting those two, we need to remember we are trying to make a game here. If our game isn't fun to play, whats the point in making it? I am I saying we can't be realistic at all? No, but we need to find balance between science and playability/simplicity.
i agree with you in most parts but ok traveling distance may be complicated but i thing in its simple form it would be great. i mean ok but i dont want to see citizen livin in one city and working in another(just an example)
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PostSubject: Re: city big enought    Sat Jan 15, 2011 5:30 pm

bill2505 wrote:
i dont want to see citizen livin in one city and working in another(just an example)
Well it depends on how close the cities are to each other. It's not abnormal in less populated towns for people to have an hour commute between two different cities so they can work. Not normal, but certainly not abnormal.
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PostSubject: Re: city big enought    Sat Jan 15, 2011 5:44 pm

bill2505 wrote:
Smothmoth wrote:
bill2505 wrote:
i agree with him. traveling distance can be a problem.this is realistic .of course you should have ways to reduse it like bus or metro

Is it realistic? Sure, but it doesn't benefit gameplay and is just over-complicating something that should to be simple. We don't want city management to be as complicated as playing a game of Sim City, and not even Sim City simulates this kind of stuff.

From ~sciocont:
Remember our goals: simplicity, science, and playability. Keep them in mind always.

People are forgetting those two, we need to remember we are trying to make a game here. If our game isn't fun to play, whats the point in making it? I am I saying we can't be realistic at all? No, but we need to find balance between science and playability/simplicity.
i agree with you in most parts but ok traveling distance may be complicated but i thing in its simple form it would be great. i mean ok but i dont want to see citizen livin in one city and working in another(just an example)
It happens in the real world all the time. The city I live in is considered a "bedroom community" because we have few businesses and companies in town, and most people who live here commute to other places to work. And it's actually one of the largest cities in the state.
As systems get larger, they tend to work less and less efficiently. Basic entropy.

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PostSubject: Re: city big enought    Sat Jan 15, 2011 6:56 pm

~sciocont wrote:
bill2505 wrote:
Smothmoth wrote:
bill2505 wrote:
i agree with him. traveling distance can be a problem.this is realistic .of course you should have ways to reduse it like bus or metro

Is it realistic? Sure, but it doesn't benefit gameplay and is just over-complicating something that should to be simple. We don't want city management to be as complicated as playing a game of Sim City, and not even Sim City simulates this kind of stuff.

From ~sciocont:
Remember our goals: simplicity, science, and playability. Keep them in mind always.

People are forgetting those two, we need to remember we are trying to make a game here. If our game isn't fun to play, whats the point in making it? I am I saying we can't be realistic at all? No, but we need to find balance between science and playability/simplicity.
i agree with you in most parts but ok traveling distance may be complicated but i thing in its simple form it would be great. i mean ok but i dont want to see citizen livin in one city and working in another(just an example)
It happens in the real world all the time. The city I live in is considered a "bedroom community" because we have few businesses and companies in town, and most people who live here commute to other places to work. And it's actually one of the largest cities in the state.
As systems get larger, they tend to work less and less efficiently. Basic entropy.
you are right here.thats why we use buses and metro or train
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PostSubject: Re: city big enought    Sun Jan 16, 2011 4:54 am

Just use a productivity bonus for Public Transport research. Voila, you have just added an impression of people travelling in towns without actually adding any complicated mechanics.
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PostSubject: Re: city big enought    Sun Jan 16, 2011 5:03 am

Commander Keen wrote:
Just use a productivity bonus for Public Transport research. Voila, you have just added an impression of people travelling in towns without actually adding any complicated mechanics.

I was thinking of something along the lines of this too, nice and simple.
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PostSubject: Re: city big enought    Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:01 am

Smothmoth wrote:
Commander Keen wrote:
Just use a productivity bonus for Public Transport research. Voila, you have just added an impression of people travelling in towns without actually adding any complicated mechanics.

I was thinking of something along the lines of this too, nice and simple.
Sounds good to me.

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PostSubject: Re: city big enought    Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:55 pm

~sciocont wrote:
Smothmoth wrote:
Commander Keen wrote:
Just use a productivity bonus for Public Transport research. Voila, you have just added an impression of people travelling in towns without actually adding any complicated mechanics.

I was thinking of something along the lines of this too, nice and simple.
Sounds good to me.
this is good suggestion along as it good implemented
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PostSubject: Re: city big enought    Fri Nov 04, 2011 3:50 am

in regards to the zoning of a city i don't think placement should be the sole option. Plus in real life cites expand in unexpected ways, so i think that using a voronoi generator to zone the cites districts as well as placement, as that could work well for any type of city from ancient mud compounds to neo -space urban sprawl. It would also help with the random city expansion for when you want cities to auto manage.

a basic voronoi fraction
so it would work from the center sc cell outwards
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PostSubject: Re: city big enought    Fri Nov 04, 2011 4:51 am

lbrewer wrote:
in regards to the zoning of a city i don't think placement should be the sole option. Plus in real life cites expand in unexpected ways, so i think that using a voronoi generator to zone the cites districts as well as placement, as that could work well for any type of city from ancient mud compounds to neo -space urban sprawl. It would also help with the random city expansion for when you want cities to auto manage.

a basic voronoi fraction
so it would work from the center sc cell outwards

But In different civilizations cities will grow in different way.
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PostSubject: Re: city big enought    Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:00 am

I think that was the point, ido. If I understand the OP, the Voneroi function randomly generates us some polygons to play with, which can then be zoned either randomly or according to a specific function. (For instance, residential x distance away from industrial zones or more.)

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PostSubject: Re: city big enought    Fri Nov 04, 2011 2:25 pm

Yeah, I've been thinking of ways to zone using voronoi maps (one of which is how we plan to make country borders) The problem with zoning in cities is that even though they grow in unexpected ways, people living there are going to try to zone them based on a grid system, simply because grids really are the very best way that you can structure a city on. So large cities' districts can be defined by voronoi textures, but we would have to snap boundaries to streets and such. Does that make sense to you?

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