Crash Course Economics

So I read that this is where I go to suggest new FPs.

Lots of good ones already here, I'll have to think a while, but I might be able to cook up a few useful odds n' ends for you lads.

Aiosian_Doctor_Xenox wrote:

So I read that this is where I go to suggest new FPs.

For the moment yes, while we finish the purposes for the FP's on the other list. Just bear in mind that most of them are already covered, and anything past what we have is usually not there because it is too insignificant or specific.

Well then, I guess I'll have to think real hard on it.

...

And find the exact definition of what a function part is. I'm guessing at the moment, it's just an object that is used to have a particular effect on the player's environment, from what I've gathered.

Function Parts are defined here and here. They are the basic building blocks of anything you make in the Tech Editor.

Ah, I see. So it's as I first figured. Alright, sounds like I might have a few.

For one, I don't see a pickaxe, or much used for mining purposes, like TNT.

Also, hologram projectors(For communication purposes/civilian morale boost), FTL drive(if you guys will allow such a thing for ships), Shield generator(Probably don't need to explain this), bellows, machetes/knives(Clearing away vegetation before major machines for defoliation are developed), cutlery and eating ware(Possibly used in tribal and medieval as a prerequisite to banquets or something like they were used in the Stronghold franchise.) may be a few things too.

Pickaxes are definitely a must, and I'm surprised they are not on the list, since I thought they were. Holograms are good too. FTL drives will be split among several different variants, but all of those will be added. Shields are there already, and if they aren't they will be added. Bellows are implied as a part of Smithies. I think blades and axes already fulfil the role of machetes and knives, especially since those two are just names for different types of blades.

Cutlery and eating ware was mentioned before, but that is a level of detail that is too much for us.

Well, you don't have to physically add the cutlery, you could just have it as a resource that is mentioned in the early forms of society, then vanishes once more modern civilization appears. Just have like a potter's hut or something, and then you choose what they produce. All you'd need is a sprite of a plate with a fork, a spoon, and a knife next to it, with a + (number here) that floats off of it or something to give representation that it exists, while never actually having to show the objects themselves. Easy shortcut for not having to model out every little thing. (Sprite + #) Or if the potter's hut is made, you can cut the sprite entirely and instead just have a statistics list with the wares the potter currently has produced. If I'm good at anything, it's thinking up shortcuts. .3.

Anyway, some more FPs:

- Digital screen

- Robot components(You only have the A.I. Core listed)

- Oil refinery(Don't think I saw this...)

- Solar Cell

- Magnetic propulsion engine(like mag-lev trains)

- Various explosives(Very effective for removing unwanted structures, rocks, digging mines, etc.)

- Cannons(Ship-board/mounted/wheeled)

- Fuses(Didn't see these, can't have a cannon without a fuse)

- Chains

- Portcullis

- Kerosene

I've got a few more, but I'll leave it at this for now. (Fixed my last images in the concept art thread, BTW)

I just readed through the full list of FP, and half of them are too specific. We will just assume they are present and forget about them. Some of the latter ones are discussed alredy, like the multiple wires.

Ok, on doctor's sugestions:

Digital screen: that will be assumed present in the places it goes, as a clock

Robot components: what is this?

Refinery: Yes

Solar cell: Yes

Engines: i actually didnt see any engine.

Explosives: We only need one type. Bombs are just explosives.

Fuse: That will be assumed in the cannon/explosive

Chain: alredy covered by chain

Portcullis: never heard of this word

Kerosene: That could be a compound, not a FP

I added the "robot components" since if you just have an A.I. core for a robot, you need the robot's other bits too, or it won't really be that much use except for intelligent conversation for lonely people. .3.

Wikipedia's description of portcullis;

Spoiler:

Well, yes, you need more things other than a computer (whoever came up with the name of AI/personality core just played portal) But that other parts are just motors (presumably electric) and structure. Probably a source of energy as well.

My point is that "robotic components" doesent mean anything. It is just a vage description, that serves no purpouse to us.

Alright then, here's a few components that you 'bots will probably be more useful with than without;

- Hydraulic pumps

- A.I. Vocabulator

- Servo motors

- Specialized manipulators(for robots)

- Programming language(I'm surprised I didn't find this tech in the same list as the robot core. Though I think it would be more useful as a research title, not sure though.)

- Audio recording equipment(Can make stuff to boost civilian morale, or give your robots hearing capabilities)

- Video recording equipment(Same as above part, except gives the 'bots visual capabilities I mean, what point is there to a film projector if there's no recording things to make the films?)

- Pressure sensors(Robots can have touch sensitive parts for deciding force needed to lift objects, or useful in roads for monitoring cargo transport, or making sure there isn't too much weight going over your bridges)

Daniferrito wrote:

Well, yes, you need more things other than a computer (whoever came up with the name of AI/personality core just played portal)

The funny thing is, I never actually played portal. But I do agree that we need an energy storage, but isn't there already an energy storage part? I thought I put it in the list, I must have forgot to do that, apologies.

Xenox, here's what I think about the suggested FP's:

Hydraulic pumps- Good
A.I. Vocabulator- Don't really get a use for this
Servo motors- Sorry for sounding stupid, but what exactly is that?
Specialized manipulators- Good
Programming language- Don't see a use
Audio recording equipment- I guess these can make robots be able to react to sound in the environment, so I guess it's good
Video recording equipment- Makes the robot be able to actually see the environment around him, am I right?
Pressure sensors- Not really sure about this

Most of these are good. Nick and Daniferrito, need your opinions. If you agree, I will place these on the FP list.

Tarpy wrote:

Daniferrito wrote:

Well, yes, you need more things other than a computer (whoever came up with the name of AI/personality core just played portal)

The funny thing is, I never actually played portal. But I do agree that we need an energy storage, but isn't there already an energy storage part? I thought I put it in the list, I must have forgot to do that, apologies.

Xenox, here's what I think about the suggested FP's:

Hydraulic pumps- Good
A.I. Vocabulator- Don't really get a use for this
Servo motors- Sorry for sounding stupid, but what exactly is that?
Specialized manipulators- Good
Programming language- Don't see a use
Audio recording equipment- I guess these can make robots be able to react to sound in the environment, so I guess it's good
Video recording equipment- Makes the robot be able to actually see the environment around him, am I right?
Pressure sensors- Not really sure about this

Most of these are good. Nick and Daniferrito, need your opinions. If you agree, I will place these on the FP list.

Okay, so, The vocabulator would allow a robot to be able to vocally interact with your critters. I mean, what use would an android with a similar purpose to Data(from Star trek) be if it couldn't speak?

For servos;

Spoiler:

Basically gives then motorized joints, I mean, what good is an arm that has no joints? Not much at all. you can joust with it maybe, but not sure if you'd really need that unless you're on a very long space flight, are good with robots, and mind-numbingly bored. .3.

Anyway, Programming Language, I'm starting to think should be a research item now, but, reason I thought of it; How do you have a fully functional robot if you didn't program it? "Welcome, to the twilight zone."

Video record; Yes, and also makes the film projector a bit more use now that it has something to project. .3.

Have you ever seen those truck stop things off of the roads where they weigh them? Yeah, I was thinking they could be used like that. Could also notify a robot if a psychotic space-monkey just landed very gently on it's back and is about to rip its eyes out. .3. Can't have them monkeys ruining your warehouse security, now can you? Them Space-monkeys could end up costing you millions...

Aiosian_Doctor_Xenox wrote:

Have you ever seen those truck stop things off of the roads where they weigh them? Yeah, I was thinking they could be used like that. Could also notify a robot if a psychotic space-monkey just landed very gently on it's back and is about to rip its eyes out. .3. Can't have them monkeys ruining your warehouse security, now can you? Them Space-monkeys could end up costing you millions...

Of course I have seen them, and I realized from the beginning what you meant as their use. However, this would, In my opinion be going into too much detail

Dani
I feel explosives should fit into different categories for more advanced explosives we shouldn't be using the same explosives to blow up a building as we do a tank and we don't want to be using the same explosives in the industrial age as we do in the space age. (unless we plan to do an upgrade system like the organs)
It wouldn't be that hard to implement once we have simple explosives implemented.

untrustedlife wrote:

Dani
I feel explosives should fit into different categories for more advanced explosives we shouldn't be using the same explosives to blow up a building as we do a tank and we don't want to be using the same explosives in the industrial age as we do in the space age. (unless we plan to do an upgrade system like the organs)
It wouldn't be that hard to implement once we have simple explosives implemented.

I know you asked Dani, but I'm going to state my opinion anyway.

I was thinking of actually just having the FP "explosive" and by unlocking different techs, you can adjust it's effects (e.g. strenght of blast, aerodynamics, special additions like fire or being nuclear)

Ok, here is what i think about your FP for the robots (althrough most of those are more general than just motors):

Hydraulic pump: For hydraulic (or pneumatic) systems you need two components. A compressor, which gets its power from an external motor, usually electric or internial explosion (gasoline), and cylinders, that consume the energy provided by the compressor and moves stuff. That two are the minimum things to have, and all we need. (You could actually make a computer out of hydraulic or neumatic components).

A. I. Vocabulator: That would just be a speaker, plus a program that transforms written language into sound. You dont need any special component to do that. Speakers would be the addition.

Servo motors: Just an electric motor. Motors still need to be added to the list, but the servo part is not important enough.

Specialized manipulators: I dont know what you mean there. If you mean http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manipulator , any extremity can alredy do that, no need for a part specific for that.

Programming language: Definetly no. FP are physical parts, not software, or other inmaterial stuff. Plus, once the species have computers, we will assume they know how to use them and such.

Audio recording equipment: Thats just a microphone. Ok for me.

Video recording equipment: A camera. Security cameras are alredy on the list, but we only need one kind of camera for everything. Changing the current security camera to a plain camera would be my suggestion.

Pressure sensors: I dont think we need to go that far. Actually, all agents (units, AIs,... however you wan to call them) will know all the properties of an object just by looking at it. No more needed.

Overall, why did you go for such complicated and long names? Espeially for that camera, microphone and speaker.

About the explosives, we only need one kind, not multiple ones. the same way we dont need a FP for each material a wheel can be made of, or for each type of container, we dont need multiple FP for explosives where you only change the compound they are made of.

Tarpy wrote:

untrustedlife wrote:

Dani
I feel explosives should fit into different categories for more advanced explosives we shouldn't be using the same explosives to blow up a building as we do a tank and we don't want to be using the same explosives in the industrial age as we do in the space age. (unless we plan to do an upgrade system like the organs)
It wouldn't be that hard to implement once we have simple explosives implemented.

I know you asked Dani, but I'm going to state my opinion anyway.

I was thinking of actually just having the FP "explosive" and by unlocking different techs, you can adjust it's effects (e.g. strenght of blast, aerodynamics, special additions like fire or being nuclear)

I like that idea, as I suggested we could do an upgrade system similar to organs.

dani:
explosives still should change as you get more technology, maybe not the material, but with an upgrade system.

Why? No matter the tecnology you have, if you explode one kilogram of TNT it is always going to make the same explosion. Same goes for any other explosive.

The factor that usually goes up with tecnology is, most usually, efficiency. For example, steam turbines (which are used to generate 90% of earth's energy) have and efficiency of about 25%. Better tecnology can make that factor go up, and maybe upgrade it to 30%. That is, geting a 20% more output from the same consumption.

However, when you explode something, you are alredy geting out 100% of the stored energy, no matter what (unless you manage not to explode part of it). What tecnology could maybe do is redirect the explosion into one side only, so you only damage one side while standing on the other, to breach a wall or a door, for example. But getting more than 100% of the energy the explosive can output goes against every law of thermodinamics, and is something only avaible in god-mode.

Dani, then we need more types of explosives, c4 is more explosive than tnt
it has more energy stored, why do we want to limit the player to TNT, that makes no sense, and we should not do it.

There is no role whatsoever for cutlery to fill in the game. There are not going to be animations of your organisms sitting at tables and eating. It is just something that is way too insignificant and specific for our scope of gameplay. Also, the way you are describing cutlery is like a resource, not an FP. Cutlery would not fit at all as a compound, and again is wayy too specific. Its for the same reasons we don't include pencils and paper and erasers and bowls and CDs and lampshades and iPods and any other non-important object from real life. It doesn't matter how easy it would be to model or sprite (and btw if you wanted it as an FP it would have to be modelled, not with a sprite), there is just no use for it. No matter how many shortcuts there are for this, bear in mind that this is a game, and that kind of stuff is just too much.

As for the FPs:
Digital screens are implied.
Robot Components need to be more specific, as in making multiple FPs to cover each Robotic component, or we could just make a single FP that needs to be placed in a machine to make it Artificially Intelligent. I think the latter is the better option, as it means only one FP is needed to give it an AI, and then the rest of the functionality is dependent on the other FPs it is made of. Also, it would need an energy source.
Refineries are there.
Solar Cells are there.
Engines will be coming up.
Explosives, look below in my response to Dani
Cannons, guns, artillery, all there.
Fuses are implied with cannons and guns and the rest, and again are too unimportant to bother with.
Chains are already there.
Portcullis can be more easily called as Gate, and should be there.
Kerosene, and any other gas for that matter, would not be an FP. Like I said, FPs are the basic elements used for building things in the Tech Editor. Fuel is used for a different purpose.

Pumps are already on the list, or at least they should be.
Servomotors: Maybe I'm just not a gearhead, but the quote you gave didn't help in explaining it. If you mean mechanical joints, then that sounds fine, but should already be on the list as "Robotic Limb".
Vocabulator: Doctor, I know you can think of reasons for these things in real life, but as I said earlier, we need to think of reasons for these in-game. We all obviously know the real life applications of these objects. The thing is, your units in the game will never be having conversations with each other. Its not like the Sims. Instead, think of it like an RTS, like Warcraft, where you just give your units the commands and then they do them, and sometimes they are automated so they do them on their own. Even in Organism mode, their will not be any dialogue, since it will be just doing actions from a first/third person perspective. Therefore, that leaves no need for a vocabulary module within robots.
Specializes Manipulators: I'm not sure entirely what you mean by this. If you mean like the "hands" of the robot, then why make them all one FP if they are specializes? Shouldn't that mean there should be multiple FPs for it? Or multiple variants? Like a built in drill, a built in claw, a built in grasper...?
Programming Languages aren't physical objects. I hope I'm not coming off as frustrated to you, but here's the definition for FPs again. Function Parts are the building blocks of what you make in the Tech Editor, they are physical objects with which you make other physical objects, like a wheel or engine placed on/in a car. A language, programming or otherwise, does not fit into that.
Audio Recording Equipment: Too specific. Consider this like cutlery. There are never going to be situations where this would be needed. The basic "Sensors" FP should be enough.
Video Recording Equipment: Same as above. Also, film projectors are unnecessary and should be discarded anyways, so we don't need anything to fill in the role they won't create.
Pressure Sensors: Same as above.

Now, as Dani said, there will be general Camera FPs, although I don't know of much use for them. I disagree, however, on the topic of microphones. I think they have no use.

Dani, on explosives, what about different levels of explosives? There are new types of bombs today that have more explosive power than the bombs of the past. I think these should be variants of the same FP.

Well, yes, explosives made out of different materials explode with different energies, dependent on the material they are made of. Like i alredy wrote, the "explosiveness" depends on the compound it is made of.

More modern bombs explode "bigger" because they are made out of more explosives compounds, or because they just contain more of it. (Note: nuclear fission bombs actually DO upgrade depending on tecnology level, as not all of its potential power is released. Currently only about 2% of it is converted into energy)

Early development can use gunpowder as explosives, giving a farly small explosive potential. As they advance, they will be able to create more gunpowder, and so making bigger bombs. When they develop TNT, they will be able to use it as explosive, instead of using gunpowder. That will mean more "explosivness". Again, early TNT is hard to create, but as they advance they will be able to create more. Then comes more advanced explosives, until the point where you get to nuclear (fission and fussion) and eventually, antimatter.

I'm new here, and it's probably already been said and thought of and discussed and so on (I'll learn the ins and outs eventually, trust me), but just in case it hasn't been, I feel the need to mention that for realism and player freedom's sake, I think less is more in terms of parts for this. As in, have a physics engine and say the way the parts interact in it, and then all you need is a handful of parts to make really intricate machines and anything you want (e.g. Kerbal Space Program, if any of you have played that. The way you can make things like helicopters using pivoting rockets and allowing the g-forces and wind resistance to cause your craft to hover, that same idea). Just my take on it though.

I know we are currently discussing the function part list, so I'm sorry for posting a slightly off topic post, but we actually need a list of Tech Object Tags as well. I have made a small list of these, so I will post them here:

Spoiler:

Obviously the list is highly unfinished, but do you at least agree with the concept?

Why do we need these?