Crash Course Economics

My guess, so the NPC critters can identify the TOs.

Or is it something else?

1. So that the size of a gun doesn't get the same as the size of a skyscraper. You would basically have four TO sizes: Small, medium, large and huge. Small would be things like guns and tools. Medium would be machinery, artillery and most vehicles. Large would be houses and certain vehicles (like cargo ships) and huge would be large buildings and only a few vehicles (Supertankers and motherships).

2. So that your units can't equip buildings or can't make guns using walls. If you define a TO as an "Opera House" your creatures won't use it as a nuke or launch it into space. Similarly, you won't be able to send a cargo truck into a sea battle. You also won't be able to use wrong material blocks with the wrong TO tag. You won't be able to use a brick wall when making a pistol or a flintlock mechanism when making a hospital.

3. So that you can integrate smaller TO's into larger ones.

@Xenox- Every TO will have it's uses depending on the FP's contained, not on the TO tag itself.

But that won't happen without most of those tags anyways. Guns wouldn't get that big because the organisms wouldn't be able to hold them.

We should not have TO sizes. No offence, but that is severely limiting the TE's freedom. Players should be able to scale things as they want, and the whole point of density, mass, weight capacity, etc. is to allow the player to as freely as possible design in the TE. A major element of the TE is the fact that it combines tools, weapons, vehicles, and buildings all into one editor. I don't think it is a good idea to separate it again.

Units can only equip TO's with handles (hence why we created that FP) and that have a mass small enough to be permitted by their weight capacity. Only FPs under the category of "Tool" can be attached to a handle, so that you will never get cases of units equipping buildings. Guns, once made of the basic FPs they are composed of, can have any additional structural shapes added onto them. Walls are just one of those shapes, a rectangular prism that is much taller than it is wide. Guns won't be able to have huge shapes of material on them, because then, as I said before, they would be too heavy to equip.

"Opera House" TOs wouldn't be able to be used as nukes anyways, because they lack the "Nuclear Warhead" FP. Things like arrow-heads and missile-heads will probably be handled in the same way as tools. They will only be able to be attached to a specific FP, let's say a shaft. Shafts can only be attached to arrow-heads, missile-heads, and other ranged weaponry.

Also, the Opera House wouldn't be able to launch into space because it would not have any rockets on it. It is perfectly feasible for the player to design a large space-ship, later in the game, with an opera house inside it.

Cargo trucks would be able to go to sea battles if they had a means of naval transport, but even then, they wouldn't be able to do much.

What do you mean wrong material blocks?

What do you mean "use a brick wall when making a pistol"? If you mean place a brick wall on a pistol, you actually could. You could make a ceramic casing for the gun. Like I said above, any shape you want you can add, and then choose what material it is made of. If you worry that it would be too big, then like I have said before, units wouldn't be able to equip it.

Flintlock mechanisms would only be able to be attached to the appropriate gun parts. Like I said for ranged weapon ammo and for tools, guns will be handled in the same way in which they can only be attached to certain other FPs, to avoid what you said.

You wouldn't need tags for integration. Whenever you create a TO, it is saved and added into your list of TOs, which can always be accesses inside the TE. That way, you can go into the TE and drag out TOs and use them like FPs.

Well, you are right, but I have found another small point. We could actually include TO tags just so when the player searches for a specific type of TO, he can filter them (TO's can have multiple tags). That's one of the things I forgot to mention.

Yes, thats a good use for them. It would help in any case where the player or computer would want to categorize TOs. However, I think we should keep the list concise, with tags like "Opera House" being too specific for my liking.

Also, I and many others have had the very same questions on the TE for a long time. It is only recently that we have figured out quite a simple way of creating a system to address all of those problems at once. I do plan to, once all of my exams are over, fully flesh out all of this concept and explain it to make it easily accessible for other users.

Well, one tag could be that the TO is tagged with the name of the sapients that made it, so you could search your database for just the particular species, and get their tech and anything else associated with them. Just a thought.

Aiosian_Doctor_Xenox wrote:

Well, one tag could be that the TO is tagged with the name of the sapients that made it, so you could search your database for just the particular species, and get their tech and anything else associated with them. Just a thought.

We were going to implement this anyway, I think. When you open the TO archive, you'll only be able to see the TO's of your own creatures. When you discover aliens, you'll be able to access a completely different archive dedicated to them.

Tarpy wrote:

We were going to implement this anyway, I think. When you open the TO archive, you'll only be able to see the TO's of your own creatures. When you discover aliens, you'll be able to access a completely different archive dedicated to them.

That sounds like a good idea.
Just a quenstion, could we also have landmines as FP? Im not sure are they on list, its really long and i maybe missed it.

Wouldnt that be a bomb (or explossives) with some sort of detection mechanism?

I think we could make it its own FP, called Mine, and with two variants, Land Mine and Sea Mine.

Thanks. They would be a cool FP, as example, placing them all around one of your cityies, and when enemyes come, they are all blown up XD

So, I want to help revive the discussion on the Function Part Discussion, so that we can finally work our way to wrapping that up. To do that, I wanted to post about some concept I was working with regarding Function Parts and the Research Web.

So for a quick debriefing, there are four categories of Function Parts. There used to be three, but I added one more for a group of FP's that didn't fit in with the rest.

Tools: All the FPs that are used by or equipped by units. This does include equipment, such as explorer packs or scout packs.

Machinery: FPs that generate, transfer, or apply energy. This can range from wheels to wind turbines to ceramic ovens. It can also include items that are not tools, such as containers.

Structures: FPs that are buildings/rooms. For example, a barracks, housing, a temple, etc.

And the new one, Networks: FPs that are similar to buildings, but that are built in networks, such as roads, canals, aqueducts, or power lines.

So, all Function Parts, when viewed in the Tech Editor, or organized into these categories. Now to start, here is a list of Function Parts for tools. Several of these are already on the FP list over on the Function Part Discussion thread, but the ones that are new are my suggestions for our current list. After discussing these, I will give my lists for the other categories as well.

Tools


Torch
Handle
Rope
Net
Hammer
Plough
Spearhead
Scout Pack
Blowgun
Dart Pouch
Javelin
Javelin Quiver
Saddle
Axe
Blade
Sling
Stone Pouch
Bow
Arrow Quiver
Pickaxe
Crossbow
Bolt Quiver
Climbing Gear
Cartography Pack
Amplifiers
Oculars
Flintlock Barrel
Stock
Bullet Pouch
Gun Mount
Musket Barrel
Rifled Barrel
Shotgun Barrel
Spy Gear
Explosive
Gas Canister
Gas Protection
Scoped Rifle Barrel
Grip
Machine Gun Barrel
Submachine Gun Barrel
Artillery Barrel
Assault Rifle Barrel

This isn't finished, it's what I have so far getting into the industrial/modern age setting.

EDIT: Btw, when I say discuss, I mean discuss whether to include them in the game or not. Discussing there purposes will be for the FP discussion thread.

Are you guys fine with all of these FPs? Is it safe to add the new ones to the list?

It's great, just merge climbing gear with scout pack. In my next post I'll bring up a list of structures

Oh scout pack gives a bonus to Line of Sight, whereas Climbing Gear decreases the movement penalty for climbing steep angles, and enables traversing of steeper angles.

I've got full lists for machinery, structures, and networks ready to post as well, as soon as the discussion of each one prior is finished, but I'd like to see yours to see how they compare.

Here we go:

Quote :

Lower class housing- Houses the lower classes. Requires least space

Middle class housing- Houses the middle classes. Requires considerably more space than lower class

Upper class housing- Houses the upper classes. Requires the most space

Barracks- Units are trained here and weapons are stored. The SC will also generate military specialists at at a faster pace.  

Authority building- Something like the town watch or police station, decreases revolt risk

Warehouse- All types of goods are stored here. Increases the rate at which the SC gains gatherer specialists

Temple- Increases happiness of the people who follow the chosen religion

Forge- Weapons are produced here. Increases the rate at which workers are produced

Public entertainment structure- Increases the happiness of the population of the SC. With new inventions and techs happiness output is increased. These FP's can also be restricted to one or two classes to increase their happiness even more, but the classes not included don't

Academy- Increases the rate at which science and art specialists are produced. Increases the amount of research points the SC produces

Mine- Local minerals are gathered here. Increases the rate at which gatherer specialists are produced

Market- Produces income and the rate at which merchant specialists are produced

Shipwright- Large ships are produced here. Increases the rate at which workers are produced

Docking space- A designated area in which ships dock. Must be close to a solid object

University- Drastically increases the rate at which science specialists are produced. Increases the amount of research points the SC produces

Customs house- Increases income depending on the number of oversea trade routs. Increases the speed at which merchants are produced

Military Academy- Increases the rate at which military specialists are produced

Observatory- Increases the rate at which scientists are produced and increases the amount of research points the SC produces. Small chance of discovering previously unknown objects in space

Factory- Can designate what is to be produced here. Increases the rate at which worker specialists are produced

Hospital- Increases the natality and health of the SC

Public school- Increases the rate at which science specialists are produced

Vehicle manufactory- Vehicles are produced here. Increases the rate at which workers are produced

Bunker- Military units get a huge bonus in combat when garrisoned here

Airplane runway- Airplanes will land here and take off here, and most later spacecraft will too, if I'm not mistaken

Helicopter pad- Helicopters can land here

Laboratory- Research points increased in SC

Stock exchange- Increases rate at which finance specialists are produced, provides income

Store- Gives a very small income bonus, and a small happiness bonus too, however, when multiple stores are in a TO, the income each one gives is increased corresponding to the amount of other stores there are in the TO

Launch pad- Used for launching rockets

O2/H2O supply- Provides water or oxygen to the TO. Used when making space stations and such 

What do you think? Also, should housing just be generic (no social class)?

Tarpy wrote:

Here we go:

Quote :

Lower class housing- Houses the lower classes. Requires least space       Since there are no more classes, all housing can be merged into just one Housing FP.

Middle class housing- Houses the middle classes. Requires considerably more space than lower class

Upper class housing- Houses the upper classes. Requires the most space

Barracks- Units are trained here and weapons are stored. The SC will also generate military specialists at at a faster pace.  Remember, weapons can only be stored if it has a stockpile as well. Barracks' cannot store on their own.

Authority building- Something like the town watch or police station, decreases revolt risk Constabularies, Police Stations, and Courthouses will cover this.

Warehouse- All types of goods are stored here. Increases the rate at which the SC gains gatherer specialists This is covered by Stockpiles, but this would make a good TO, if the player didn't want to have to create their own building and just wanted to use one of our presets.

Temple- Increases happiness of the people who follow the chosen religion I've got this one too, but instead of boosting happiness it boosts the conversion effect of the religion its for. Certain religions can give happiness bonuses.

Forge- Weapons are produced here. Increases the rate at which workers are produced Forge I've got for converting ores into metals and metals into alloys. A Smithy is used to create TO's from metal, and thats not only weapons.

Public entertainment structure- Increases the happiness of the population of the SC. With new inventions and techs happiness output is increased. These FP's can also be restricted to one or two classes to increase their happiness even more, but the classes not included don't No more classes. Also, this is covered by FPs like the Arena, Theatre, and Museum.

Academy- Increases the rate at which science and art specialists are produced. Increases the amount of research points the SC produces My only difference here is that it only generates RP towards certain fields, such as Philosophy, Social, and I think it was Politics.

Mine- Local minerals are gathered here. Increases the rate at which gatherer specialists are produced Good one, I forgot that.

Market- Produces income and the rate at which merchant specialists are produced Actually I've got a different purpose for this one, and that ties in to the market concept I want to post about later. I've got the merchant specialist boost as well though.

Shipwright- Large ships are produced here. Increases the rate at which workers are produced A shipwright means a person who builds ships. What I've got this down as is a Dock.

Docking space- A designated area in which ships dock. Must be close to a solid object Not that necessary. Ships should be able to stop whenever they want.

University- Drastically increases the rate at which science specialists are produced. Increases the amount of research points the SC produces I've got this down as Classroom, since the TO at large is more likely to be a University.

Customs house- Increases income depending on the number of oversea trade routs. Increases the speed at which merchants are produced This one is a good idea, but I think would make more sense if it gives a bonus to Tariffs.

Military Academy- Increases the rate at which military specialists are produced Also gives a bonus to the command of Commanders from this SC.

Observatory- Increases the rate at which scientists are produced and increases the amount of research points the SC produces. Small chance of discovering previously unknown objects in space I am mostly the same on this one, except for the last part. Could you specify how that would work?

Factory- Can designate what is to be produced here. Increases the rate at which worker specialists are produced I've got this broken down to Refineries, Casting Plants, Assembly Lines, Mechanical Looms, and Manufactories.

Hospital- Increases the natality and health of the SC Well actually it increases only the health, which in turn boosts population growth.

Public school- Increases the rate at which science specialists are produced I think having schools and universities is redundant, so I only went with Classroom, and it does what your University does.

Vehicle manufactory- Vehicles are produced here. Increases the rate at which workers are produced Already covered under Manufactories.

Bunker- Military units get a huge bonus in combat when garrisoned here Good idea. It would be a later game version of towers. However, it wouldn't give a bonus to troops inside it. Instead, units garrisoned inside it would provide the attack of the tower/bunker, and in return the tower would protect the units (the units are not able to be attacked until they leave the tower or the tower is destroyed).

Airplane runway- Airplanes will land here and take off here, and most later spacecraft will too, if I'm not mistaken Great idea, hadn't thought of that. I would just call it a Runway though.

Helicopter pad- Helicopters can land here I don't think a helicopter needs a landing pad to land. It might be necessary for the player to drop off troops with helicopters in the middle of a jungle or a battle zone, with no landing pad on hand.

Laboratory- Research points increased in SC I put this as only giving RP to Science. That way it doesn't overlap with Schools.

Stock exchange- Increases rate at which finance specialists are produced, provides income If by finance specialists you mean merchant specialists, then I agree. However, what it does is not give income but instead increase the chance for merchant specialists to invest in building structures.

Store- Gives a very small income bonus, and a small happiness bonus too, however, when multiple stores are in a TO, the income each one gives is increased corresponding to the amount of other stores there are in the TO Interesting idea, but I think stores are a bit too detailed. Also, it is sort of implied that stores have existed since the moment your people learn to trade.

Launch pad- Used for launching rockets Very good one.

O2/H2O supply- Provides water or oxygen to the TO. Used when making space stations and such I think we need to refine this idea, otherwise we would have to make one of these for each resource.

What do you think? Also, should housing just be generic (no social class)?

EDIT: Actually, I think we don't need a Mine FP. We could make it so that any building with storage capabilities can have an additional feature enabled to it by the player. The additional feature would be, if a unit right clicked (or some other hotkey) on that building (not counting military units), then that building would automatically give/equip that unit with a TO in its storage. That means for a mine, a player would just have to create a building with a stockpile FP, and then enable that additional option, and set it to equip units with pickaxes. Then the player would build that building near mineral deposits, send over some Gatherer Specialists, and equip the Gatherers with Pickaxes from the Building before they begin gathering. Then, whenever their carrying capacity is full, they drop off the ore at the building, because the stockpile can hold it, and then they return to gathering. However, I think I am going to think this over the night and try to refine it, because right now I see a few problems with it.

There's a few things I kind of disagree with:

Authority building- What would the differences be between those?
Public entertainment structure- Again, what would the difference be ?(Perhaps in how much of a bonus they give?)
Docking space- I understand what you mean by this, of course the players ship can stop anywhere it wants, but what I really meant is that it can only unload cargo there
Observatory- I'll explain this later in the post 
Factories- Perhaps we should just keep it simple and leave it as "factory" and simply let the player choose what they will manufactor (dunno how it is spelled) there. However, if there would really be a large difference between the stuff you mentioned, we can do it that way. 

Also, the observatory thing I'll explain later, I promise

A constabulary reduces the unhappiness penalty for no garrison by 50% (the effect does not stack), and give a small bonus to Counterintelligence.

A police station reduces the unhappiness penalty for no garrison by 100% (the effect does not stack), and gives a larger bonus to Counterintelligence.

A courthouse increases stability, which in effect decreases revolt risk.

A theatre will give a flat out bonus to happiness, but quite small.

A museum gives a bonus to happiness and culture based on the number of arts in the city. In a city with many arts, this will likely be a greater happiness boost than the theatre, but this effect does not stack per SC.

An arena gives happiness based off of the number of Sport Arts in the SC. Again, in a city with many sports, or even a small amount, this will give a bigger boost than a theatre, but again this does not stack per SC.

Since a Dock is required to build ships, I agree that it would be required to drop off/pick up cargo as well.

Something I had thought of for Observatories was that they would allow the player special camera shots into the night sky from their planet. This would be significant because at this point the player's camera is still binded within their homeworld's atmosphere. Therefore, although it would give less Science RP than other FP's of that time period, it would give that unique ability.

But there are many types of factories, and different processes are unlocked from different technologies. I don't like the idea of just put a generic tech that unlocks a generic "Factory". In the earlier parts of the game, there are many different FP's that produce compounds and objects, such as the Forge, Smithy, Loom, Workshop, etc. They do different things so it is important to keep them different. These later game FP's are just the more advanced versions of those FP's. The Refinery is the later counterpart of the Forge, Casting Plant for Smithy, Mechanical Loom for Loom, and Assembly Line for workshop. I think it's important to keep these separate, and I don't think it would make much sense to merge them.

Just to explain, a Refinery smelts ores into metals and metals into alloys. A Casting Plant turns metals an alloys into TO's. A Mechanical Loom turns any fibrous compounds into textiles, and the Assembly Line turns everything other than metals into TO's. Each comes from a different Research/Invention and gives significance to that Research/Invention.

Would I be right in thinking that stats such as happiness have no upper or lower limit, and just continue to increase or decrease giving modifiers to other stats as they go?

You wouldn't. Happiness ranges from 0-100, but there is a penalty to happiness from your population. The larger the population, the more the penalty. For that reason, the player must increase their happiness if they wish to grow.

So in theory you would never really hit the top end?

Precisely.

Alright, I think maybe we should continue this discussion. The FP thread has been in slumber for some time now, but it is impossible to continue it unless we develop the final list of FPs, which we should on this thread.

Nick, you said you have already made the list. Can you put up the list of networking FPs so we can all discuss it?

I'll just put up the lists for all the categories, to save time. Once I've organized them I'll post it separately to not clutter this post.