Crash Course Economics

So I was thinking we replace stone with all the new specialized stones. Would any of the specialized stones work for aggregate?

NickTheNick wrote:

So I was thinking we replace stone with all the new specialized stones. Would any of the specialized stones work for aggregate?

Any stone would do, though weaker stones could result in a weaker form of concrete.

NickTheNick wrote:

So I was thinking we replace stone with all the new specialized stones. Would any of the specialized stones work for aggregate?

I think the level of specialisation we need is sedimentary/metamorphic/igneous extrustive/intrusive, because more detail would bring the question of how many types of specific rock we should bring in, then suddenly we have dwarf fortress.

Also,

Colour coded and with more resources and stuff:

I would say crushed stone is gravel/sand (depending on how crushed it is). Acording to wikipedia, the only difference between them is that gravel is natural, and the shape is a bit different. So we shouldn't differenciate them, just add a process that transforms stone into gravel/sand.

To Holomanga, why adding cinnabar and mercury? What use do we have for them?

Daniferrito wrote:

I would say crushed stone is gravel/sand (depending on how crushed it is). Acording to wikipedia, the only difference between them is that gravel is natural, and the shape is a bit different. So we shouldn't differenciate them, just add a process that transforms stone into gravel/sand.

To Holomanga, why adding cinnabar and mercury? What use do we have for them?

Cinnabar can be used as a pigment (technically vermillion. That might come in the next version). Mercury "is used in thermometers, barometers, manometers, sphygmomanometers, float valves, mercury switches, and other devices", as Wikipedia says.

EDIT: Mercury's also used to make amalgam, which can fix teeth. A mercury-gold amalgam can also extract gold from its ore. Furthermore, mercury is pretty Belgium dense for a liquid, so it could be used for ballast and stuff.

If we add cinnabar as a dye, we would need to add dyes for all the other colours, and a system to manage them, and all that stuff. I dont think we need dyes, or at least i dont think they are worth the time.

About mercury, everything you listed up are measuring devices, which need very small amounts of mercury, and are not too usefull (the are usefull, but with one is enough). Medicinal uses are too low, and as mercury is toxic to nearly all known lifeforms, it won't probably help with other life forms. And if you want to use something as ballast, you would use something cheaper, easier to extract and not toxic.

Holomanga, we aren't going to be using general types of rock like you listed. We will use specific rocks like limestone and marble. I agree with Daniferrito, Cinnabar and Mercury are not worth adding. The reasons you listed were insufficient in proving their credibility to be added as compounds. Dye will be a single compound used in the production of clothing. I'm not even sure about including dye itself, because I haven't gotten to that concept yet (clothing is a whole topic unto itself).

I really like the chart, nonetheless I have some critique. Plant Fiber won't be a compound. Animal Hair isn't a compound. Fur is derived directly from Animals in the Environment and not related to Hides (which is basically just leather). Electrum and Rose Gold won't be included and were never mentioned. Also, you are missing cotton, wool, and several other compounds from the OP. Only use compounds that we have agreed upon and are listed in the OP.

Lastly, to help simplify it, just route all ores and types of stone to a box named simply "Rock". We will discuss the how and where of the compounds later, right now we are on the what.

Nevertheless, I feel like my comments don't fully convey the credit this chart receives. Very well done and thank you so much for taking up this task.

As someone else pointed out earlier, we still have the problem of deciding what parts of the plant is cotton/ which plants produce cotton, and deciding which animals produce fur, and which wool. I would say they are the same, as their uses dont differenciate much.

I've been looking at steelmaking, and actually, the process of making iron would be like so:



There are thousands of iron types, I would reduce it to two, steel and pure iron, where steel is a general building material and iron is used to make magnets (as pure iron is too weak to build anithing with, and steel is usually easier to get)

I agree that we have just iron and steel, but I think the compound iron should include the alloys of iron that were common for construction and tool making during the iron age onwards. Therefore, iron could be used for production or construction, it just would be weaker than steel. Including iron as its pure self thus not being able to make anything out of it makes it pretty useless.

Also, for the process of making iron, I always thought it was like this:



Doesn't iron ore make iron, and then iron and coal make steel? However, I don't know what Electrolysis is exactly and I don't know how it would fit into here.

Your basically right, it's also worth mentioning that iron age tools were actually a crude form of steel (made by beating the impurities out of the iron on the anvil, rather than removing them as slag in a blast furnace). As Dani says, pure iron is almost useless for tool making or construction, however we might instead want to distinguish between the two as pre-industrial iron and post-industrial steel (call them steel and iron, but give them different uses).

Okay guys, so if this discussion is over then I will be posting the next episode by this weekend. The next Episode is on Compound Processing, and there are two parts; "Where do Compounds Come From", and "Where Do Compounds Go". However, there are many things left unanswered from this topic, so we will have to come back to it later. A complete list of compounds is necessary for all of the following episodes, and most other concepts for the Strategy Mode. Also, Holomanga, keep working on that chart you are doing, it is looking great. If at any point you want a break just post so and see if someone will take over.

Episode II: Compound Processing
Part I: Where Do Compounds Come From

So, to start, here is a working list of compounds from the previous Episode. The compounds we come up with are the very foundation of all the future episodes, so it is vital that we get it done. A couple posts before this post can be seen the chart outlining the relationships between many of the compounds. Remember, it's a WORKING list, so there is a lot left to add and take away from it. However, since we have drained ourselves for the time being on this list, let's move on to the next topic before going back again.

Spoiler:

The next issue we must address is that of the processing of all these compounds. This part will focus on the origins of these compounds and how they are extracted from the environment. This will relate a lot to the transition between the Aware/Awakening/Multicellular Stage in Organism Mode (Creature Stage) and the Society/Industrial/Space Stage in Strategy Mode (Civ/Space Stage). This is a transition that needs a lot of ironing out, and where better to start then here. The compound system is one of the most integral components of the game. Now, first question to address, how much of the galaxy do we want to make out of specific compounds? I don't just mean the compounds listed above, but any compound from any stage, including protein, water, sugar, iron, limestone, etc.

One idea is to make everything out of compounds. If you're creature digs up a pile of earth, that earth is composed of various in game compounds. If your creature eats a plant, that plant is made of various compounds which enter your creature and are dealt with by the creature's internal organs and digestive/waste systems respectively. Then the waste they produce is composed of in-game compounds and based off of the compounds they ate for lunch and what organs/processes those compounds went through in the creature. This is all very much the same in Strategy Mode. Factories "eat" certain compounds, process them with their "organs" (Function Parts), and then "poop" out the "waste". An example would be a building that intakes iron and coal and produces steel, through the use of a Forge Function Part.

Another idea is to make the same system as above but to a more limited extent. Sure certain things will be made out of compounds, but it isn't necessary to compose the dirt under your feet or the chemicals in that tree. Only what is important is made of compounds. This would result in a more limited range of interaction between creatures/civilizations and their environments, but is also less CPU intensive.

If you have any further ideas I didn't mention here, please mention so in the discussion.

TASK #1: This is a task for everyone reading this post. Discuss the different methods of implementing the compound system and decide on one. This is necessary for progressing any further in the Strategy Mode, and even Organism Mode concept.

Something else that also ties in with this is what yields what. How does the computer know whether X rock will yield Y ore, or Z ore, or both, or neither. How will it know how much of Y or Z ore will be yielded. How will the computer be able to distinguish the fine line between creatures that yield wool and those who don't. We need to examine EVERY single compound in the list that comes directly from the environment, i.e. raw materials, and address where it comes from and how the computer can tell how much comes from each source. So...

TASK #2: Again, this is for everyone. We need to set specific parameters for each and every raw material as to where it comes from, and how the CPU can tell how much of that compound there is in that said source.

TASK #3: For this task, make a list of all the compounds and their respective parameters, as agreed upon by Task #2. Use a program like Word or Excel that can make good tables or charts.

Moreover, once we have gotten underway with Tasks 1 and 2 and started number 3, we need to also figure out how the player's species, civilization and organism, collects these compounds from their environment. What is the relationship between the size of organs and the rate at which they can process compounds in an organism? At what point does the CPU draw the line between a lung and a lump of flesh that isn't a lung? Or are there multiple lines? How will the CPU tell whether the pickaxe I designed in the Tech Editor is sharp/dense/strong enough to mine X ore or Y rock? How does the CPU determine the damage done by the weapon I designed in the Tech Editor on organism A? How about organism B? How about when organism B is wearing some X type of armour? These are the types of questions we need to address in this episode, and hopefully, by the end of our discussion, these questions will be a lot less common since we will have decided on the models and systems to put in place to answer this. Also, please try and answer some of these question, I am legitimately wondering about many of them.

As you can tell, this episode, and specifically this part, are mostly questions that need addressing and discussion. That is because these are some things I think many people have somewhat omitted in favour of discussing building mega-space structures and playing as plants in organism mode and evolving bio luminescent sharks with limited civilization. However, we have to eventually discuss and decide on this or the game will never be made. Whenever we suggest a what, we need to consider the how. I have worked previously on the topics before and after this, but here things get tricky and really require collaboration and effort, so don't feel shy or intimidated by the wall of text and please join in on the discussion of this key concept behind the structure of the ENTIRE game.

Discuss.

good to see progress, but I'd rather see it on the microbe stage

I believe we alredy have a similar thread (althrough speaking about energy sources instead of compounds) which could apply here. Link

Basically, compounds will be stockpiled (in nature), waiting for the civilization to colect them. The compounds have a generation rate (speed at which it is generated), and a disipation rate (speed at which it gets destroyed, or unusable). The stockpile may have a limit.
Some compounds can be tied to other processes, instead of being here, so for example the population algorithm calculates the population of alien sheeps.

On a diferent point:
I supose we want diferent zones of the same planet to have different resources avaible to them. For that, i sugest to make whole zones to have individual stockpiles. For Natural compounds, the best option would be to use the biomes, as they are zones that we will have alredy spatially defined, and its the option that makes the most sense. For mineral resoirces, Using biomes as well is the easiest option. Each facility built in a particular area, draws resources from that area, no matter the exact position in it.

Finally, I would merge the compounds and the energy sources. They can be treated the exact same way, and we even share some items alredy (as oil, coal, food (or any organic material) and fissionable element (althrough this is not in the list, it should be added)).

Merging energy sources with compounds seems like a good idea. Perhaps energy itself could be treated as a compound, for batteries and other energy stores. In fact, maybe the ability to accurately simulate an electronic circuit would be a fun feature, in player-made circuits. Enough digression, we should go with compound stockpiles, and it's already in the energy sources plan. The only trouble would be how it works with the player's useable resources (e.g. is ore in a mine usable by the player or must it be extracted first?).


Back onto the main topic, perhaps the amounts of compounds in the Earth (ores, clay, etc.) could be distributed with a noise-map, generated in the same way as a planet's terrain (procedurally generated, at least on the first visit). The only downside is that material distribution isn't affected by biome.

I think the idea of making up everything of compounds is good, but it would make super-auto-evo significantly slower if we used it. However, with all of the ores and similar environmental compounds we have so far, it seems like that's the way we're going anyway, and it definitely be a good gameplay feature - with the variety of compounds we are planning so far, it seems like the Tech Editor could charge with building materials rather than a Sporebucks equivalent, and in the Organism Editor one could simply make anything, and impracticality can be the main restriction rather than DNA points or a complexity limit. To put it simply, from the way I imagine this working, compounds = realism, so I say we should go for it and make as much as possible from them. But we'll need the opinion of a programmer to confirm whether this is practical.

And I have one, possibly (i.e. probably) controversial query - is it really necessary to plan every compound we will include post-cellular? We inevitably will have to make changes later on as things are found to be impractical, and we would be much more free to add what we want, when we want it if we add compounds as they are needed, which seems like it could be much more beneficial in the long-run than sticking to a fixed list. Besides, the compounds system allows us to add and take away from it as we please relatively easily, so we really don't need much preparation in order to add something to it. I'm not saying planning isn't necessary, since you have a good point of how we need to know how much of the game will be part of the compound system in order to advance our concepts, but going as far as planning every compound seems a little extreme, in my opinion. I don't mean to be offensive, it's just that I really don't understand exactly how a complete list of compounds could be worthwhile/beneficial in the long-run. (That, and I like a good debate )

Let me explain the posibilities we have when distributing resources:

We can distribute resources in a discrete manner, or in a continuous manner. Discrete means we have a finit amount of places to distribute resources, and continuous means we have a map of resource distribution where every tiny bit of it can have a diferent amount of resources in it. Obiously, the most realistic is the continuous way. However, it is also the hardest way.

In a (bad*) picture, it would look like this:

Spoiler:

On the left, each square is a different part of the map. It doesent need to be the same part as biomes, but it would help, and as the areas are arbitrary anyway, why not? This way, the concept of stockpiles can be applied, as each area has its own stockpile. On the right, it doesent make sense, and the resource gathering facility would change the resource map each operation removing some of the resource it gathered and add that to its own stockpile.

Once the civilization gets advanced enough, we can merge all the areas on a planet, making everything on the planet to take from the same stockpile, so the cpu gets a little rest.

* Really bad, at least the right side.

PTFace wrote:

good to see progress, but I'd rather see it on the microbe stage

That's coming up.

@Daniferrito: Ahh okay, that will be a useful reference. I will make sure to read it.
Also, stockpiling sounds good. However, what tells the CPU the compound composition of this pile of earth as opposed to this pile, or this chunk of rock as opposed to another? Do you see what I mean? I just see issues with setting these basic parameters.
Compounds based on biomes sounds good, but now we need to look at each compound and assign it to one or more biomes.
Ahh good idea. So the gathering buildings, like farms and mines, don't collect from specific areas but in the general vicinity. Nonetheless, we need to now specify how this will work, ideally with examples.
I think it would be a great idea to merge the energies and compounds. I remember that in discussion of the Microbe Stage heat was going to be treated as a compound. I'm all for it.

@The Uteen: Could you explain what noise-mapping is? I don't really know, although procedurally generating based off of biomes sounds good.
What do you mean by super-auto-evo? And why would it be slowed down?
Oh, I had initially assumed everything in the tech editor would cost materials, and then those materials could cost money. Anyways, I think its a good idea. However, I don't know how that would work for the OE.
Yes of course we can keep changing the list as we go along, hence the name Working List. However, I would just like to get as many done as soon as possible so that as we map out their relationships, their processes, and where they come from, we know what we are working with.

@Daniferrito (again): I somewhat understand what you mean. Could you please elaborate?

About initializing it, it's really easy with the areas. Here i will assumewe are using biomes as the areas, but its not necesary.

When initializing each biome, we will place on it random amounts of each mineral compound. These amounts dont have to be specific to each biome, but some biomes could have bonus amounts of some compounds (like tropical biomes have more oil under them, if we are generating an alredy evolved planet). This inicialization can be like so:
Diamonds - 80% chance of 0 diamonds. 10% chance of 0-2 t of diamonds. 10% chance of 2-5 t of diamonds.
This is just an example. For non-mineral compounds, that is plants and animals, it is entirelly dependant on the species living there.

About the gathering buildings, each cycle, they draw an amount of resources from the stockpile, depending on various factors like tecnology, man-power,... This resources that are taken from the stockpile are moved to the building internal stockpile (or directly to the nearest stockpile, the trading stockpile, whathever), suffering some losses. Depending on the tecnology used, and the effort put into it, more or less of the raw resource makes it into the building stockpile. For example, a method of extracting diamonds could be much faster, in exange of ruining some of the diamonds, so you get more diamonds faster, but in the long run, you get less diamonds. Also depending on the tecnology used. From there, other facilities can take the compound and combine it.

For some resources, like energy, the resource is transformed directly into energy, instead of stockpiling it.

Actually, i just realized that energy (electric energy) cannot be stockpiled, and needs to be used instantly. But internally, we can define energy as stockpiled, but set a stockpile limit of 0, that way surplus energy is destroyed at the end of cycles.

How to implement a cycle using stockpiles:

Spoiler:

Danferrito: Looks good.

NickTheNick wrote:

@The Uteen: Could you explain what noise-mapping is? I don't really know, although procedurally generating based off of biomes sounds good.
What do you mean by super-auto-evo? And why would it be slowed down?
Oh, I had initially assumed everything in the tech editor would cost materials, and then those materials could cost money. Anyways, I think its a good idea. However, I don't know how that would work for the OE.
Yes of course we can keep changing the list as we go along, hence the name Working List. However, I would just like to get as many done as soon as possible so that as we map out their relationships, their processes, and where they come from, we know what we are working with.

By noise, I meant something like this. Getting it to work dependant on biome might be tricky, but Danferrito seems to have some ideas for how to do this, so never mind.

I thought super-auto-evo was common knowledge. Well, time to refer to it by acronym to I can add it to the abbreviation dictionary! Basically, SAE is how the game loads planets/areas that the player hasn't visited for a long time. It simulates AE rapidly to bring the planet (or area) up to the present, making much more S than normal AE. SAE is what will allow us to not have to simulate the entire galaxy at once, if it works properly.

Yes, the compound/material costs in the OE would have to be ‘paid’ as the organism grows and repairs itself, meaning the requirements can't be shown very well in the editor itself, only by testing the organism out by using it for a few generations.

Well, that was a short debate. Well, a working list of compounds is fine, if anyone wants to do it.

Well, noise brushes are the way to go when generating continuous content*. However, if we take the discrete path, we dont need them. However, the thing i fear most about noise brushes for placing compounds is that everything has to fit. That is, all the materials together have to add up to 100% exactly, and geting that to work when using diferent noise brushes would be a pain.

For the terrain shape, we will probably use noise brushes together with fractals


*Look at previous post for explantion on continuous

@Daniferrito: Ahh ok I see what you mean. That is a very good idea. So from what I understand, buildings will have a radius in which they will collect the designated compounds. Then, based off of how effective the TE determined the tools and technology in the building to be, as well as how fully operated it is, it collects at a certain rate. Each building has a stockpile where it stores what it collects before sending it off to other places. Compounds are naturally found in stockpiled in the environment themselves. Also, the idea of having stockpiles for SC's and nations gets into the future episodes, and I have some concept done on that. But back to this topic, I really like that idea.
Good idea, energy stockpile limit is 0.
All very nice work Dani, I really like your model.

@The Uteen: Oh that's a noise map. I think that is a great idea and compliments Dani's idea of stockpiles. Super-auto-evo sounds like a clever solution to galactic simulation. Hopefully it won't interfere with the compound system.

@Daniferrito (again): Apologies for my repeated ignorance, but what are fractals?

I was thinking about suggesting a thread to explain some of that concepts. Concepts we might use, but that usually people dont understaund, so we can refer them to that thread. Sort of loke the faq, but things that are not exactly thrive-ish.

I was sugesting about buildings drawing from the stockpile they are situated on, at least at low level of advancement. For later, they can draw from multiple ones in a radius.

BTW, fractals are in short an agorithm that can generateinfinetly complex shapes with a very short formula, for generating terrain, they probably need to be complimented with some randomness on top, or they would look unnatural at some points.

Thanks, okay, so now that we've ironed out some of that concept, I will try to recap to get a sense of what we discussed. Please correct me where I'm wrong, and add in anything I am missing.

-Compounds naturally stockpile in nature based off of the biome they are in, with rocks and minerals being included in that bunch. Where and how densely they are distributed is based off of noise-mapping and/or fractals. Certain compounds are more abundant in certain biomes, and some can even be non-existent in some biomes.
-To collect these compounds, the player must build appropriate buildings within the vicinity of the compounds stockpiled in nature. A building is identified as "appropriate" for collecting a certain compound if it contains a certain Function Part, or if it equips its workers with a certain Function Part, that is identified to be able to collect that compound.
-Compounds can also be collected with units equipped with the appropriate FP, with appropriate being defined above.
-The rate at which a building collects the compounds is determined based off of how many people it employs and the technology (i.e. the Function Parts it uses).
-Buildings then stockpile the compounds they collect.
-Energy does not stockpile, but must be used immediately upon collection or is lost.

We will have to go through the list of FP's and decide which ones allow the collection of which compounds and at what rates.

However, there are still some issues to confront. How do we, or more importantly, the computer, distinguish between animals bearing wool, and those bearing fur? Or those being hairy but bearing neither?

Also, once we iron out these base concepts, we need to get to going through each biome and listing the compounds and their percentage chances of generating in those biomes. Then we will need to list these all in a big chart. Once we get that done everything will become a whole lot easier.