Strategy Mode Discussion

This thread is to organize our current efforts at finishing the concept of the Strategy mode, and is also a spot for me to introduce work I have been doing on this field on my own. This thread will be open to just about any topic on the Strategy Mode that isn't covered elsewhere, but do try to not interrupt ongoing discussions with new discussions.

I will update the OP with any important links or downloads that arise during this time.

To start, I want to introduce, the new and improved Research Web, all organized into a nice visual web layout:

http://www.mediafire.com/?834fmptoguxzt

This is courtesy of yEd, an amazing graphing program. You will need to install that here before you can open this file. This graph is made in 3.10.0, where the current version is 3.10.2. Hopefully, this doesn't cause a problem, but if it does, say so and I'll make the necessary adjustments.

So, now you can discuss the contents of the web, give any suggestions you want, but most importantly, have a visual cue of all the Researches and Inventions in the game, which should make contributing to this stage a whole lot easier.

To give a quick briefing, the web is not complete. It needs some fleshing out at the upper branches, and only goes to the early Space Stage. There are currently more than 250 researches and inventions in the web, with more to come as more is finished. Researches are like generic Techs, like from the Civilization games. Inventions, which are the smaller boxes below each Research, are like sub-techs. They are only unlocked for discovering once their respective Research has been discovered. At the beginning of the game, researches are discovered as a result of the actions of your tribe. After record keeping you can invest into fields of research, as highlights by the colour coding. After scientific method, you can research specific researches.

Hope you enjoy it, I've been working on it for a while.

Very good work Nick. I will help you in any way i can to finish this research web.

EDIT: Nick, can you please make list of researches or a image at dev forums, beacuse my computr is totaly filled with random stuff whic is somehow blocking C, so i cant install these stuff till the middle of this year, when i will get a new computer.

Give any suggestions here, and we will discuss it.

First thing i see, is that gunpowder is under invention, instead of chemistry. Also, it seems a bit off, because other researches are more general, like whole fields, while gunpowder is quite specific.

Also, there are a bunch of relations missing, for example, advanced firearms (or any of the smaller weapons) should require weaponry to be researched before that.

Finally, how do researches and inventions work together? Are inventions inlocked when you get the research or further research you need to do before you can continue? I didnt understaund it well

Invention covers basic alchemy and experimentation with the natural patterns known at that time. I wouldn't say it is too specific though, since it is a big game changer for gameplay.

The goal of the Research Web is to have as few connections as possible, to maximize specialization for players. Weaponry predates Advanced Firearms by so much that is is basically an implied connection. Also, construction, engineering, and invention are ample opportunities to close any gap left by not discovering weaponry.

Inventions can only be discovered once their research is discovered. Before this, they are locked. You don't require Inventions to get to the next Research.

Fair enough.

However, in the aspect of inventions, what is preventing you from getting to Engineering, and so metalurgy, before you discover fire (for example, if you are underwater)

Also, Sociology is completely separated from the rest of the graph. I assume it was meant to be conected to Literature, but I just wanted to let you know so you can fix it.

Aerospace Engeneering is disconected as well, but i assume that is because that part isn't finished yet. It should go between flight and rocketry in my opinion, and could be renamed to advanced flight.

Certain Inventions do unofficially impede your advancement until you discover them, fire being one. Many inventions are discovered as a result of player or unit actions, metallurgy requires the use of fire and smithing before it can be discovered.

Some techs are disconnected. That means they are under consideration.

Areospace Engineering is meant to be a much later tech in which the player begins to add important systems and modules to their spaceships, so it best goes after interstellar travel.

There should be a glassmaking invention under the crafting technology.

Glassmaking is covered by the Invention "Smithing".

So, concerning the upper branch of the Research Web, what do you guys think should be added? It currently has quite a stunted growth compared to many of the other fields.

For example, if we added Sociology, what could we make it do and what Inventions could we put under it?

Okay if not one has ideas for my previous question then disregard it for now, since I have another question. I was thinking of adding a new Research after Interstellar Travel, which would hold the Inventions of Life Support, Sensors, Spaceship Modules, basically all the advancements in technology that increase the stats of space ships. What should it be called? Spaceship Engineering? Advanced Spaceflight? (I warn you there are a lot of Researches that start with Advanced, and I predict a lot more to come, so I would prefer to avoid that if possible).

I would actually avoid actively any "advanced" research, and search for alternative names. Spaceship engineering seems good to me.

What about alternate propulsion types? I mean FTL, warpdrive, infinite improbability drive,... Probably they should be under diferent researches, but together with other things. Probably all of them are somewhat after a tecnology called Quantic Physics, whose inventions would allow to create (any) matter (from energy), which includes antimatter, which is the only way of getting that. Quantic Physics descends from Atomic Physics, and probably will take Fussion and Quantic Teleportation with it. Especially since Fusion power is in the same level as Steam Power, which doesent feel right.

More advanced things that I can think of:

Magnetic containement (needed for fussion reactors and storing antimatter) is an invention under Advanced Materials (as Magnetic levitation is there as well)

Super-Conductors should be under Advanced materials as well. I dont think they fit in computers.

Force-fields, energy shields, tractor beam could all fit under the same discovery.

I kind of like the Idea of this, if we put different engine types under different fields then players can take different routes to get to space, that is a brilliant idea in my opinion. It also enhances replayability.

We should seperate acsension into differet fields as-well for example you can transform into an energy being or you could upload everyones mind to a super computer which in turn allows you to do the same exact thing (using nanobots which this super computer controls). (but under different research fields)

----
I need to look at the research web though yet so if these are already there then please disregard what I say.

Okay, I also prefer Spaceship Engineering. So if no one has any qualms we will settle with that.

All those alternate propulsion types are Inventions under the Research Interstellar Travel. By Quantic Physics do you mean Quantum Physics?

I am liking the idea of Quantum Physics, but I would rename it Quantum Mechanics, because there are already two other Researches right before it with "Physics". Also, what would you name the Invention that enables matter to be converted to energy? What would the FP that would undergo that process be called?

Magnetic Containment sounds good. I'm adding it if there are no objections.

Moving superconductors, if there are no objections.

Metamaterials, the Invention under Advanced Materials, already enables a new synthetic compound called "Shielding Material". Should we distinguish this from energy shields? Force-fields and tractor beams sound good. What should we call the Research they are under?

Having all the engine types under the same Research already is meant for diversification. Part of the purpose of Inventions is that they are optional, and also a result of less controllable circumstances, so most often different nations with the same Researches will still have different Inventions. However, once a Research becomes really old, you usually discover all the rest of the Inventions. Plus, we will make all the Engine Types cost a LOT of Research Points, so the player would just not find it practical to keep investing in Interstellar Travel once they have already gotten one of the engine type Inventions under it.

I really like the idea on different paths for ascension, so long as they give the same end result of being in a state of "God Mode". So, in addition to Ascension Gates, and Mind Uploading, what suggestions do you guys have?

NickTheNick wrote:

All those alternate propulsion types are Inventions under the Research Interstellar Travel. By Quantic Physics do you mean Quantum Physics?

Probably

NickTheNick wrote:

I am liking the idea of Quantum Physics, but I would rename it Quantum Mechanics, because there are already two other Researches right before it with "Physics".

Makes sense. I also though that that many "Physics" discoveries were too many

NickTheNick wrote:

Also, what would you name the Invention that enables matter to be converted to energy? What would the FP that would undergo that process be called?

I dont know. Naming things that are possible, but not invented yet is tricky. I dont think there is even a word for the process Matter -> Energy. For lack of a better name, i would call it "Matter to energy conversion" and "Matter to energy generator"

NickTheNick wrote:

Metamaterials, the Invention under Advanced Materials, already enables a new synthetic compound called "Shielding Material". Should we distinguish this from energy shields? Force-fields and tractor beams sound good. What should we call the Research they are under?

Actually, distinctions between different sci-fi tecnologies is tricky. I would consider force-fields and energy shields similar enough to be the same invention. At the end, they do the same function, prevent things from passing through using raw energy to function. Both Force-fields and tractor beams could use the same invention, but i'm not sure where to place them.

NickTheNick wrote:

Having all the engine types under the same Research already is meant for diversification. Part of the purpose of Inventions is that they are optional, and also a result of less controllable circumstances, so most often different nations with the same Researches will still have different Inventions. However, once a Research becomes really old, you usually discover all the rest of the Inventions. Plus, we will make all the Engine Types cost a LOT of Research Points, so the player would just not find it practical to keep investing in Interstellar Travel once they have already gotten one of the engine type Inventions under it.

Sounds good. By the way, each discovery (and invention) should have its own progress independent of all other discoveries. For example, if you are at work at Thermodynamics and are currently at 50%, but decide to switch to electricity, you dont loose that 50%. next time you go back at it, you will just resume investigation, not restart it.

On top of that, what if about 10% of your research points were automatically distributed through all of the avaible things to investigate? Even if one nation is hard at work discovering atomic structure, there are scientists studying all other areas on their own. That way all basic discoveries will be eventually discovered even if you are not interested directly on them. Different government types could change this number, as different government types are more controlling than others.

NickTheNick wrote:

I really like the idea on different paths for ascension, so long as they give the same end result of being in a state of "God Mode". So, in addition to Ascension Gates, and Mind Uploading, what suggestions do you guys have?

I can think of a few ways you can become omnipotent:

-Ascending to a pure energy being.
-Leaving the restrictions of the four dimensions (3 spatial, 1 temporal). For example, going to 4 spatial dimensions, or leaving the timeline so we can see the whole timeline at once and not just a single pat of it each time.
-Computers powerfull enough to upgrade themselves into more powerfull computers, which in turn upgrade themselves... Which reminds me of a few other computer-related researches:

• Computing: Basic computers, alredy in the web.
  
• Biocomputing: Using living cells as computers. Probably as an invention somewhere after biology. You only need to keep them warm and with food, which can be administred as as light or sugar. This should be apart from computing, and an alternate way of geting computers without requiring electricity.
  
• Quantum computers: Instead of using electrical signals, using quantum states to store information. Much much faster than normal computers, and much more space-efficients, but require big amounts of energy to function.

However, i dont think that would give the same powers of the other paths. At most, it will eventually evolve enough computing power to crush the research web and get to another way of omnipotency.
-A similar way of the las one would be creatures evolving itselves to become more inteligent. Again, the same reason of the last one, and the same result.

Finally, another invention that i'm missing: Wireless electricity. That would allow to send electricity to different places without cables and with reduced costs. maybe under electricity? (althrough it would be of the costly ones)

Yes, naming is the problem with sci-fi tech. Another problem is that we dont have human history to call upon for reference anymore. However, I think the names you suggested are far too long. I think we're just going to have to think on this one.

I imagined force fields as something that would stop matter and energy, whereas shields just stop energy?

Definitely, all progress will be independent. However, I don't agree with distributing the Research Points. At the beginning, its necessary, after discovering Record Keeping, because you can only invest in fields of research, but after scientific method you should only be able to do one at a time. Nonetheless, Research points can be gained without the player's direct control. Buildings and actions and treaties can invest research points into Researches you aren't directly investing in. This would have the effect that you wanted.

The first type of ascension will obviously be implemented, as it is the original concept.
The second I find impossible to imagine and I would think it would be equally hard to code. But I'm not the expert here, you tell me.
Computers upgrading themselves wouldnt be the whole picture, the species would have to upload themselves to that computer as well, then they would ascend.

How would the Biocomputer FP compare to the regular computer FP? Should it be under Advanced Biology?
Quantum computers sounds good. Should they be under Quantum Mechanics?

Quote :

However, i dont think that would give the same powers of the other paths. At most, it will eventually evolve enough computing power to crush the research web and get to another way of omnipotency.
-A similar way of the las one would be creatures evolving itselves to become more inteligent. Again, the same reason of the last one, and the same result.

I don't really understand you here. Could you elaborate?

Wireless Electricity under Electricity sounds fair, but I worry it will be discovered too soon, but there doesn't seem to be a better Research to put it under. However, we can make it cost a lot of Research Points, so that it is hard to get.

Well, leaving the dimensions we are stuch in woud be archieved through a slightly differently named "ascension" gate. It's actually not too good, as it is the same.

Biocomputers are different from normal computers in:
-Diferent resources to build, as they cos biomatter, probably in the shape of food (extremely cheap)
-Different field to research it, slightly harder to get.
-Require biomatter to run, instead of energy. Again as food.
Quantum computers arethe same as normal ones, but:
-More powerfull
-More costly to build
-More costly to run

I actually imagined force-fields as stopping only matter, while shields stopped both. What if force-fields stop only matter and shields stop only energy?

To my quote, i meant that uploading your mind to the most powerfull computer ever doesent give you unlimited powers as the others ways do. The computer would still exist in the material world, and all the actions from the computer would need to be done through machinery that gets its energy from somewhere.

Making wireless electricity really expensive was the point.

i have an idea considering the techtree:
it would be more logical (at least to me) if there were different conditions on technology levels besides researching the previous level
more with the graphic

img838.imageshack.us/img838/5691/thrivetechtree.png

(had to remove direct link because i am not allowed to post links in first 7 days ^^)

here we have 2 basic technologies:
nuclear physics and magnetics
and the subtrees of antimatter and fusion technologies

the black lines symbolize direct linkages between the technologies, this links show you researchable technologies
as for fusion reacrors you need first to research fusion science to know what it is and what you can do with fusion science

the green lines show prequisite technologies for researching or progressing in this technology, but if you only have the green links, you still dont know what you can research with this, as magnetics 2 does not tell you that you can make fusion reactors 1 with it

for example: you need fusion science researched for knowing that you can research fusion reactors but you need better magnets to be able to research/build them
or you have researched antimatter drives 1, you know that you can do better, but need better magnets


and last but not least are the red links. they represent a chance for discovering this technology, the chance gets higher the more research you invest in the particular area

fusion science can be discovered in nuclear physics 1 but it is not a must, there should be a top level (for nuclear physics) at which you discover fusion science for sure

i know that there is already a concept for this, but i wanted to bring this idea in, as it floated around my mind quite a while ^^

I just moved your post here, even though the other thread's last post wasnt too long ago, all relevant discussion on it wasthree years ago, and here we are discussing similar things.

I like your idea, it adds more depth to the researches and inventions. However, it might be a bit too much depth. With that graph, you nearly have the same amount of relationships that Nick has on its whole research web.

I supose basic researches (like magnets, ornuclear physics) are just stepping points to get to the juicy stuff (fusion weapons, antimatter reactor). However, there are things that are just not usefull. For example, MagLev (i supose that is Magnetic levitation, nevermind) or Nuclear Physics 3. That is just some revising to make sure those things dont happen.

To sum up, i like the idea, but i fear it might be too complex for players to understaund. Usually research trees/webs are alredy big enough that some players feel overwhelmed by them, this could make it much worse. Plus, creating the whole web would be quite complex. Programming-wise, how big the web is doesent matter.

yes, it would be quite overwhelming when you step right into space age, but the complexity would increase linearly (or so) with the higher ages.
as in the beginning of the sapience age you have only tools, fire, the wheel etc without many interactions, but the higher the age, the higher the complexity, the learning curve would not be nearly as steep as this high late era graph suggests

as for nuclear science 3 and maglev: they are only dummy techs i shoved in for more examples, maglev would yield better planetary transportation and nuclear science 3 quantum physics or something else.

the whole idea was originally constructed for my own concept of a space 4x, because i dont like simple and straight techtrees. after the second playthrough i usually know everything of it, an thats boring for the scientists of mine ^^
for this concept would have even more discoveries to make after the first couple playthorughs, what would make an additional community feature "i found this awesome technology by researching this and this and combining them!!"

So you would have to say: "lets study this tecnology and this other one, and see if something comes out of it"? That is probably too complicated. However, discovering the tech tree as you go is in my opinion a good idea. But if a research requires researches A and B, and you have them, it should be avaible to research without any guessing.

lets reforumlate it: "i researched this to lvl 7 an this to lvl 8 and got this awesome thing!"

better? ^^

cornflakes91 wrote:

i have an idea considering the techtree:
it would be more logical (at least to me) if there were different conditions on technology levels besides researching the previous level
more with the graphic

img838.imageshack.us/img838/5691/thrivetechtree.png

(had to remove direct link because i am not allowed to post links in first 7 days ^^)

here we have 2 basic technologies:
nuclear physics and magnetics
and the subtrees of antimatter and fusion technologies

the black lines symbolize direct linkages between the technologies, this links show you researchable technologies
as for fusion reacrors you need first to research fusion science to know what it is and what you can do with fusion science

the green lines show prequisite technologies for researching or progressing in this technology, but if you only have the green links, you still dont know what you can research with this, as magnetics 2 does not tell you that you can make fusion reactors 1 with it

for example: you need fusion science researched for knowing that you can research fusion reactors but you need better magnets to be able to research/build them
or you have researched antimatter drives 1, you know that you can do better, but need better magnets


and last but not least are the red links. they represent a chance for discovering this technology, the chance gets higher the more research you invest in the particular area

fusion science can be discovered in nuclear physics 1 but it is not a must, there should be a top level (for nuclear physics) at which you discover fusion science for sure

i know that there is already a concept for this, but i wanted to bring this idea in, as it floated around my mind quite a while ^^

Interesting idea, but it has already been discussed and agreed upon a while back (I wouldn't expect you to know this it was quite old). The problem is that it makes the tech tree waayy more complicated than we want. It already is starting to get quite complex. The whole idea of the web is to make it streamlined and easily backwards-traceable, to provide for increased customizability. Researches don't work by chances, rather, they work by Research Point collection. Also, such a change would drastically transform what the Web is like right now, and the web is already very good as it is, so it would be a lot of work to change it out of a state that we took a long time to get to.

Nonetheless, keep up the great creativity.

i thought that that is already decided, just wanted to add this ^^

and the chances would not be like "you have 50% of getting this" but "at this research level you have 50% of discovering this and any additional research will increase this chance by 25%"
(nuclear physics 1 -> 50% chance, NP2 -> 75% chance and so on)

it would bring some variation into the techtree without making it completely random

No I'm saying that with Research Points probabilities are not even in the equation. It's just whenever you reach the threshold of Research Points required you discover the Research or Invention. RP come from multiple sources. For example:

• Forge FP's generate 1 RP towards the Construction field every time they complete a process
  
• 10 RP is generated towards gathering every time a new compound is collected for the first time
  
• Schools generate spendable RP's for the player, which they can use to either invest in Research fields (before Scientific Method), or in specific Researches (after Scientific Method)