Strategy Mode Discussion

i'am not saying that the research points needed to research something are random but that the LINKS between researches have some probabilities

(to reference to my graph)
at nuclear physics 1 you CAN discover that there is fusion science to research with a set amount of research points needed
at NP2 you CAN discover that there is fusion science with a higher probability

the RP to research nuclear physics or fusion science dont change

Oh ok, but that leads to too much complication in the relationships, is already covered to a sufficient extent, but in the reverse order, and as mentioned above goes againstthe streamlined layout of the Research Web to allow for greater specialization.

I actually really like this idea, and it won't require too much extra effort to code for.
Though I would add one small change: Lock-Outs.

If you have a certain Tech or level of Tech you cannot discover the optional tech even if you satisfy other requirements
eg. Hyperdrive
Unlocked if: lvl3 Interplanetary Engine. lvl5 Dimensional Research
Detection of Possibility: lvl2 Interplanetary Engine 40% chance, +20% every added level of Interplanetary Engine
Lockout: lvl2 Wormhole Travel OR lvl2 Warpdrive etc.


I am aware this would be a massive overhaul of the tech tree, and a lot of work on people writing out the tech tree and it's technologies and trying to balance them. But it leads to a more realistic AND more replayable civilization stages as well as letting AI Civilizations found in Space (both planet-bound and spacefaring) to have differing technologies. Thus you avoid the Spore Archetype homogeny a bit more and provide a very good reason to trade techs (because you can't discover them on your own due to your tech path)
It also allows for modding later down the line for different tech trees, for instance a magic system, or someone making zerg or crystal-based technologies, then simply marking off they cant learn if they get X science-based technology or a specific power plant or something

I just addressed that. Introducing probability discoveries would supplant any role filled by the important Research Point system. RP's are randomly proliferated, unless otherwise specified, so they cover probability anyways. FP's can already be upgraded to have improved efficiency, but there won't be levels to different researches. Those levels are already covered by later researches, and inventions (basically one of the main purposes of inventions). I think it is unrealistic and unfair to bar the player from researching multiple techs. When players specialize on their own, it adds to the fun, but when they are forced to specialize because of techs being locked out that would just lead to frustration. Alternative types of FTL travel is the commonly cited example of different civs going for different paths, but where else could that apply? A civ discovers math but is locked from invention? A civ discovers philosophy but is locked from steam power?

Even if that did apply, it is already more practical for a player to specialize with one FTL engine rather than all of them, since each one costs a lot of RP and once one is achieved you have far less demand for the others. Civs, without an arbitrary and enforced lockout on techs, will naturally specialize and diversify, especially because of inventions. Part of the whole purpose behind inventions is to give this very diversity. The Tech Editor as well also makes the same techs produce vastly differing Tech Objects. Modding is not an issue with the current model either.

Plus, I don't think this is comparable to Spore, since Spore didn't have a Research Tree at all, whereas we have an open-ended Research Web with Inventions under each Research and vast possibilities of Tech Objects to create from the Function Parts gained from those Researches and Inventions.

This might be off topic, but under the Economics research, there should be the invention of Mass Distribution.

Could you elaborate what you mean by mass distribution?

NickTheNick wrote:

Could you elaborate what you mean by mass distribution?

By Mass Distribution I mean like mass distribution of food and goods, also known as supermarket chains, or other large companies selling in mass instead of small stores or groups.

As the later space stage technologies are fairly empty, I would like to propose some ideas for debate.

-Exotic matter storage (gathering)
This would allow the player to acquire powerful materials such as anti-matter, negative mass, and dark energy which are needed for endgame ships and weapons.

-Dimension manipulation (science)
Allows for faster and greater transportation devices such as warp drives and teleporters.

-Megastuctures (construction)
Very late research that allows the ability to create massive objects such as dyson spheres, Shkadov thrusters (engines that moves stars), and Matrioshka brains, which might lead to the end of the game

-Neuromapping (social)
A greater understanding of thought that allows races to connect and share thoughts at a very close level expanding diplomacy.

-Mass fabrication (gathering)
Mentioned earlier in this discussion, the ability to manipulate matter to and from energy and into different types of matter allowing easier gathering of materials.

So there are some ideas. I hope you like some of them.

pentomid wrote:

-Exotic matter storage (gathering)
This would allow the player to acquire powerful materials such as anti-matter, negative mass, and dark energy which are needed for endgame ships and weapons.

Each of those would come under more specific inventions late game, and I think anti-matter is already accounted for in such a fashion.

pentomid wrote:

-Dimension manipulation (science)
Allows for faster and greater transportation devices such as warp drives and teleporters.

Those are already under Interstellar Travel.

pentomid wrote:

-Megastuctures (construction)
Very late research that allows the
ability to create massive objects such as dyson spheres, Shkadov
thrusters (engines that moves stars), and Matrioshka brains, which might
lead to the end of the game

Could you specify what is discovered as a result of this research and how that relates to what it enables?

pentomid wrote:

-Neuromapping (social)
A greater understanding of thought that allows races to connect and share thoughts at a very close level expanding diplomacy.

Could you specify what you mean and how it would expand diplomacy?

pentomid wrote:

-Mass fabrication (gathering)
Mentioned
earlier in this discussion, the ability to manipulate matter to and
from energy and into different types of matter allowing easier gathering
of materials.

Yup, already on the list for the next update. I'll make sure to post that link here soon to avoid repetition.

NickTheNick wrote:

pentomid wrote:

-Megastuctures (construction)
Very late research that allows the
ability to create massive objects such as dyson spheres, Shkadov
thrusters (engines that moves stars), and Matrioshka brains, which might
lead to the end of the game

Could you specify what is discovered as a result of this research and how that relates to what it enables?

It would be the discovery of mass production and fabrication of devices on a planetary scale. Mass production as we know it is different as this method calls for building something that requires amassing materials of planetary mass, building objects so large that their own size causes problems, such as its gravity and light-speed delay from one side to another, and an engineering plan more complex than anything built before it. Researching this enables a race to construct objects that have exponentially more power and capability than anything before it due to its massive size. It would be the research that leads to the construction of god machines, and possibly the ascension gate itself.

NickTheNick wrote:

pentomid wrote:

-Neuromapping (social)
A greater understanding of thought that allows races to connect and share thoughts at a very close level expanding diplomacy.

Could you specify what you mean and how it would expand diplomacy?

Harder to explain, I may need to think this one a bit further through. A race would eventually understand the brain so well that it could essentially start hacking it. In diplomatic terms, it would allow one member of a race to increase his or her empathy to fully understand another individual. It's similar to those movies where two characters switch lives to understand one another, except in this case there's no physical swap, but the lesson is learned. Now I think about it, something like that would only add bonuses to diplomatic relations rather than expanding it.

NickTheNick wrote:

pentomid wrote:

-Mass fabrication (gathering)
Mentioned
earlier in this discussion, the ability to manipulate matter to and
from energy and into different types of matter allowing easier gathering
of materials.

Yup, already on the list for the next update. I'll make sure to post that link here soon to avoid repetition.

Woo 1 for 5! my first post is successful.

I noticed that the political technology tree didn't have capitalism. Did you just forget or is communism our only economic style possible.

@pentomid

I agree to a certain extent with the proposed research, but I still think it is quite vague, so I will try and flesh out some more solid functions for it.

I think brain hacking in terms of diplomacy sounds a bit far fetched, especially since either A) they would develop defences against it and then just use those in cases of negotiating, or B) if everyone is brain hacking it has a net effect of zero.

@EnergyKnife

That's because capitalism is the default. The default is to trade and exchange without restriction. You don't need to research something to do that. Plus, if it was there, it would be under Economics, not Politics.

NickTheNick wrote:

@pentomid

I agree to a certain extent with the proposed research, but I still think it is quite vague, so I will try and flesh out some more solid functions for it.

I think brain hacking in terms of diplomacy sounds a bit far fetched, especially since either A) they would develop defences against it and then just use those in cases of negotiating, or B) if everyone is brain hacking it has a net effect of zero.

Great... Now you've got me thinking of an internet that you can access with your brain...
That would definitely be WEIRD. "You have mail!" *Whole head vibrates*

@NickTheNick

Right, I've took some time to think, and do some more research, and I'm going to try and rewrite this one.

Neuroscience (science)
At this point in a creature's history, they essentially understand how the brain works, in very specific detail. This would allow for complete control of robots from the mind, complete integration into the virtual world from the brain, uploading minds into computers effectively creating immortality, and open up a psychological warground. Gameplaywise, your creatures starts the transition away from a creature of flesh. The immortal minds would continue to learn and grow becoming super units of sorts, adding huge bonuses to certain stats (think how many more ideas Steven Hawking could produce if he lived to 500). Until this research, bionic warfare units wouldn't be able to properly work due to incompatibility between mind and machine. Finally, the player would be able to engage in psychological warfare. This kind of battle would involve attempting to "hack" the brains of enemy units and flood their thoughts with fear and despair, lowering the stats of the enemies when physical combat begins. How the player would "fight" this battle is kind of difficult to think of as such battles don't exist today. I can't think of an idea for how the player would play this battle of willpower. If no interesting ideas of gameplay can be thought of for this it could just boil down to highlighting the enemy, click "attack psychologically" and a randomizer sees if it works.

Most of that is already included under the Research Web. Psychological warfare sounds too fantastical at the moment, since I don't see how you would access the target's brain without managing to place some sort of contraption on their head.

Okay. Thanks for the feedback.

Btw, did you end up accepting megastructures? Or did you just give up talking about it?

It's currently under the status of under consideration, because it holds some weight but not enough to validate itself as a Research.

Well, I think I can contribute to psych warfare.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_warfare

Give this a skim.

Its not that we don't know about psychological warfare, its that there is yet to be a feasible way of implementing it into a game.

Okay, so, this thread is to divert some of the traffic on the Miscellaneous thread regarding the Strategy Mode. At the moment, I've been pondering an issue with the current concept for a bit and would like to offer it for ideas.

In correspondence with my recent activity in refining the concept for all things military on the Strategy Mode, I came upon supplies. Something pivotal to any war is the travel of supplies from their production centers to the troops that need them. Now we don't want to overcomplicate things with an ultra-realistic supply network, but we also don't want to neglect it regarding its significant and its various mentions from concepts way back on this forum. However, most of the mentions I found were very vague, and so I wanted to take the time now to try and specify how a possible supply system would work, and how to tie it into the rest of the gameplay stage for the player at that point of the game.

Now, I think all supplies can more or less be divided into three main categories, Food, Munitions/Ammunition, and Fuel.

Ammunition is already being covered in this thread. It depletes per attack, and repletes at Supply TOs. Players don't have to produce ammunition for their soldiers to fill their bars with, its just already there at the Supply TO when they get there, and is implied. Simple and fun.

That leaves food and fuel for here. We need to think of a way to implement these without stressing the player with too much management. However, food and fuel are actual compounds in the game, so they cannot just be assumed to always be available at specific food or fuel buildings. Then the question becomes whether food or fuel should even be kept in buildings which units resupply at, and how food/fuel should even make it to its targets.

There are multiple organic compounds derived from animals in the game that is conventionally thought of as food for humans, but other organisms might have different diets, so how do we label compounds as food? Also, different vehicles use different engines and different fuel, so how do we classify fuel?

Discuss.

NickTheNick wrote:

That leaves food and fuel for here. We need to think of a way to implement these without stressing the player with too much management. However, food and fuel are actual compounds in the game, so they cannot just be assumed to always be available at specific food or fuel buildings. Then the question becomes whether food or fuel should even be kept in buildings which units resupply at, and how food/fuel should even make it to its targets.

There are multiple organic compounds derived from animals in the game that is conventionally thought of as food for humans, but other organisms might have different diets, so how do we label compounds as food? Also, different vehicles use different engines and different fuel, so how do we classify fuel?

Discuss.

Fuel probably wouldn't be hard to make a difference between. When the player is making a TO, he would specify what type of fuel would the engine of a vehicle (or anything else for that matter) run on.

Types of fuel would be:
1.Coal-Found underground
2.Oil-Found underground
3.Natural Gas- Found underground
4.Uranium-Used in nuclear power
5.Organic-Produced on farms
6.Electricity

Now, you can both make a TO that is used to transport fuel (tankers,trucks etc.) and stationary TO buildings used to store fuel (gas stations, fuel depots).

Like ammo, land vehicles would only need to be within a certain radius of one of these TO's and it would refuel.

Water vehicles, would need to dock first, get really close to the transport vehicles or if they are big enough, air vehicles can land on them aswell.

Air vehicles would need to land first, or if the player has some pretty advanced technology, can be refueled in mid air as well.

By default, all vehicles in the radius of the TO will have the same priority in refueling  (ones with full fuel do not count). However, the player can prioritise one or multiple vehicles, and only those vehicles would be refueled by the TO.

Now, here's a formula of how fast will each individual vehicle be refueled if it is in the radius of the TO with fuel (IMO distance shouldn't really matter, but if someone disagrees just say it).

Sr=((maxF-curF)/5s)/nV

Sr-Speed of refueling (kg (coal, uranium and organics) or l (oil and natural gas) per second)
maxF-The maximum amount of fuel the vehicle can store
curF-The current amount of fuel the vehicle contains
5s- Five seconds
nV-Number of vehicles that are being refueled

Any opinions are welcome.

I think you should add electricity as a type of "fuel" IMO, and what about solar-cells, windcraft etc.?
Besides from that I pretty much agrees on the things in your post Tarpy

Thriving Cheese wrote:

I think you should add electricity as a type of "fuel" IMO, and what about solar-cells, windcraft etc.?

Alright, I added it now. Thanks for pointing it out.

What about sentient biofuel (burning your own species after they die for power). It's disgusting to us but could be acceptable for a different species.

EnergyKnife wrote:

What about sentient biofuel (burning your own species after they die for power). It's disgusting to us but could be acceptable for a different species.

I think that should go under organic.