The official military topic

Current concept, more up to date, can be found at our Wiki: http://thrivegame.wikidot.com/squads
This post is currently under reconstruction.

Squads - Squads are groups of military units. They become available after researching Military training, until then units are controlled like in every conventional RTS. Every squad has it's own banner. Squads are accessed by clicking this banner. Entire squad is commanded at once. Squads are destroyed when number of Active members is zero, number of Injured or Lost does not matter.

\--Squad creation - Squads can be created in two ways. The first is Squad types. These serve as templates for any future squads. You can create squads in MCs an SCs in this way. You can also merge or split squads directly on the battlefield, creating entirely new squads.

\--SC/MC squad manipulation -When squads enter SCs or MCs, they are stored in there. Squads can be merged, splitted, created or disbanded. Each of these action uses or frees an amount of free Military specialists. Each type of squad is displayed in a special tab, along with number of squads of this type. Each squad that is not full of Active members tries to heal and replace Injured and Lost members.

\--Squad formations - Every squad has a formation. That formation may be very loose (modern fireteams) or very tight (Roman legions), based on what player selects. Squads always try to keep their formation, with the sole exception of actively fighting an enemy (sometimes not even then).

\--Squad destruction - If a squad has no Active members left, it is destroyed, no matter how many Injured or Lost were in that squad. For every squad destroyed, there is a probability that a part of those injured will arrive to the nearest MC/SC, based on how close it is and on the terrain (also on who controls the terrain, if possible).

Controls - Once Military Training is researched, units should be controled ONLY in squads. If you want to order a single unit, you have to assign it it's own squad. See Warhammer: Dark Omen below for more.

GUI - The screen should show you how much units selected squad has, experience, and any other things needed, like minimap. (reference, to see unit counter, look below the "M1 Abrams" text on bottom left, for experience, look at stars at bottom left corner).

Health - Each squad or group of units would have a counter of active/injured/dead units, like the one in reference above. Each unit would have a status. Active = able to fight. Injured = not able to fight, but can be recovered. Lost = units lost in battle, squad needs to replace those with new. Only Active units can fight, any Injured and Lost units decrease combat effectivity of the squad.

Morale - Morale would be a value showing will to fight of the group. Morale would be raised by SC or MC or friendly units nearby, and would get dropped with combat losses, overuse (not giving the unit time to rest), no supplies. Morale below 50% would cause the squad to be highly demoralised, increasing it's chance to flee a bit, and morale below 25% would always cause the unit to flee, sometimes even flee from the battle.

Supplies (hunger) - Each unit should need supplies, without supplies the unit would suffer a high loss of morale and losses after some time.

Commanders - Each squad could be assigned a higher ranked officer, replacing it's original first unit. Commanders would raise morale of their squads and any squads nearby, but their death would strongly reduce morale of their and nearby squads. The higher ranked a Commander is, the better morale bonus he provides, but the greater effect his death has.

Experience - Every squad has an experience level. This is measured by 1 - 12 stars (ranks), 1 star being absolute greens and 12 elite of elites. Experience can be acquired by combat, and to some degree also by training and field duty. Experience improves almost anything a squad can do, from speed of movement, to health and combat effectivity to rate of using supplies.



There are a few games that have good morale and experience systems. Check them out if you want, they were my source of inspiration.

Warhammer: Dark Omen (Youtube video - don't mind the fantasy theme and horrible players, but take a look at controls and GUI)
Spellcross: The last battle (no good video on Youtube).

Commander Keen wrote:

Health - Each squad or group of units would have a counter of active/injured/dead units, like the one in reference above. Each unit would have a status. Active = able to fight. Injured = not able to fight, but can be recovered. Lost = units lost in battle, squad needs to replace those with new.

I take this to mean that the squad's effectiveness will decrease as it loses active units? In most games, squads are 100% effective until they are destroyed down to the last man. That generally impacts realism negatively.

Xenopologist wrote:

Commander Keen wrote:

Health - Each squad or group of units would have a counter of active/injured/dead units, like the one in reference above. Each unit would have a status. Active = able to fight. Injured = not able to fight, but can be recovered. Lost = units lost in battle, squad needs to replace those with new.

I take this to mean that the squad's effectiveness will decrease as it loses active units? In most games, squads are 100% effective until they are destroyed down to the last man. That generally impacts realism negatively.

I think that's what he's saying.

By the way, Keen, i love the whole concept. You've really done a good job of wrapping things up and making the military side of the game easier to handle and a lot more strategic and fun.

But can i ask for more information on squads? And also, it would be a good idea to incorporate a General/Commander unit that keeps numerous squads in check and improves their morale.

@Rex:
I think the unit history thing is a great way to let morale really seem realistic. Having each unit or squad collect training/experience points in training and battles is a great way to show experience. Obviously this only needs to be a small number display alongside the rest of their information.

It'll probably be easy enough to implement the never-seen-before-TO scare, but i think that the whole singing and dancing thing may be a little hard for the game to understand.

Chances sounds good.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

Xenopologist wrote:

I take this to mean that the squad's effectiveness will decrease as it loses active units? In most games, squads are 100% effective until they are destroyed down to the last man. That generally impacts realism negatively.

I think that's what he's saying.

Yes. I'll make that clear it the OP.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

By the way, Keen, i love the whole concept. You've really done a good job of wrapping things up and making the military side of the game easier to handle and a lot more strategic and fun.

But can i ask for more information on squads? And also, it would be a good idea to incorporate a General/Commander unit that keeps numerous squads in check and improves their morale.

Thank you. What information concerning squads do you want?

Also, the Commander unit idea is great. They would just be special units assigned into a squad, replacing one of it's members, that would greatly boost morale of troops, but their death would cause a huge loss of morale.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

It'll probably be easy enough to implement the never-seen-before-TO scare, but i think that the whole singing and dancing thing may be a little hard for the game to understand.

If a squad would have good enough history, then squads seeing it or hearing it (their battle hymn) would suffer a severe loss of morale. Hussites managed to win alot of battles before they even started to figth, having their enemy flee when they heard Hussite's hymn.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

but i think that the whole singing and dancing thing may be a little hard for the game to understand.

Not exactly. I was under the assumption that units would have different behaiviors, determined by the player. This would be everything from 'wound, don't kill' to going breserk and hurling themselves into the thick of it. If they'd never seen that style before, it'd scare them.

Tenebrarum wrote:

US_of_Alaska wrote:

but i think that the whole singing and dancing thing may be a little hard for the game to understand.

Not exactly. I was under the assumption that units would have different behaiviors, determined by the player. This would be everything from 'wound, don't kill' to going breserk and hurling themselves into the thick of it. If they'd never seen that style before, it'd scare them.

I think that's a bit of a stretch, isn't Rex? Giving behaviours to every unit will be hard for the player and the programmers.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

I think that's a bit of a stretch, isn't Rex? Giving behaviours to every unit will be hard for the player and the programmers.

I wouldn't think so. Just a simple drp down menu for the player, Breserker, Tank, that sort of thing. And if we don't have multiple behaiviors anyway, how would we get tactical differences varying from nation to nation, and more importantly, era to era? Nowadays soldiers always take cover, circa 1000 they didn't always.

Also, whenever I say units, I mean unit types. Just so you know.

Tenebrarum wrote:

US_of_Alaska wrote:

I think that's a bit of a stretch, isn't Rex? Giving behaviours to every unit will be hard for the player and the programmers.

I wouldn't think so. Just a simple drp down menu for the player, Breserker, Tank, that sort of thing. And if we don't have multiple behaiviors anyway, how would we get tactical differences varying from nation to nation, and more importantly, era to era? Nowadays soldiers always take cover, circa 1000 they didn't always.

Also, whenever I say units, I mean unit types. Just so you know.

I figured the soldiers would do what the player told them to...

But i meant it would be difficult to implement the amount of behaviours that might be possible. There's got to be a lot of them.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

I figured the soldiers would do what the player told them to...

Well yes, but how they behaive when you're not directly controlling them is also important.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

But i meant it would be difficult to implement the amount of behaviours that might be possible. There's got to be a lot of them.

Well yes, we probaboly wouldn't include EVERYTHING. Just some of the more prominent ideas.

Tenebrarum wrote:

US_of_Alaska wrote:

I figured the soldiers would do what the player told them to...

Well yes, but how they behaive when you're not directly controlling them is also important.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

But i meant it would be difficult to implement the amount of behaviours that might be possible. There's got to be a lot of them.

Well yes, we probaboly wouldn't include EVERYTHING. Just some of the more prominent ideas.

I guess it sounds reasonable.

i was thinking about how maybe the player would want to create his own unit types to produce, and i came up with an idea.

with a tech editor, a player attaches tech objects to normal citizens. he names this unit whatever he wants.
to create squad types, he sets down the unit types he made, in any shape he wants, and names this squad anything he wants.

example - Ambusher

A (archer)
B (brawler)
S (swordsman)

S - S - S
- - - - - -
B - B - B
- - - - - -
A - A - A

he can then either produce single units, or this custom squad.

he can set them to produce once, produce when this type of unit dies (minimum amount of this unit), or produce continuously.
the more units in the squad, the longer the production time. therefore, single unit production is nearly instant, small squads like my example take a small amount of time, and large squads take a large amount of time.

the player can also produce armies

example - Long Range

F (firing squad)
A (artillery)
V (armored vehicles)

F - F - F
- - - - - -
V - V - V
- - - - - -
A - A - A

as you could probably guess, this would have to take place much later in the game when resources are much less of a concern.


i was also thinking that when in strategy mode as a whole, players should be able to control time as so

.5x
1x
2x
3x
5x
10x
25x
50x
100x
250x
500x
1000x
etc, etc.

whaddya think of this rather huge post?

injured units would have a base 30% chance of survival, medical improvements would raise the number

morale to flee would vary with the population's mentality.... if they " fight till death" then morale would be quite lower

eumesmo wrote:

injured units would have a base 30% chance of survival, medical improvements would raise the number

morale to flee would vary with the population's mentality.... if they " fight till death" then morale would be quite lower

toughness of unit and equipment of unit would also raise the number.

and i disagree with the fight till death morale drop. if anything, it would drastically increase, because the creature is (from an earth perspective) full of adrenaline, probably moving around in slow motion (to himself), and probably going to fight till his last ounce of strength is gone in order to keep himself from being killed. however, if they went into the fight with low morale, they might just give up.
if they eventually escape, they should have some sort of side effect, and i can't decide between confidence pushed through the roof from adrenaline, or PTSD (post traumatic stress disorder) with super low morale.

toxiciron wrote:

eumesmo wrote:

morale to flee would vary with the population's mentality.... if they " fight till death" then morale would be quite lower

i disagree with the fight till death morale drop. if anything, it would drastically increase, because the creature is (from an earth perspective) full of adrenaline, probably moving around in slow motion (to himself), and probably going to fight till his last ounce of strength is gone in order to keep himself from being killed.

Perhaps whether or not low health would raise or lower morale could depend on the level of discipline in the nation's military training? A more disciplined unit would fight harder per individual with lower health, while a less disciplined one might lose morale.

toxiciron wrote:

longpost is long

I don't understand this concept completely. I agree with the Tech Editor part. You create your unit with what FPs you have, give it a name and appropriate tags. Then when you say "produce", i guess you mean the process of building the TOs, training the Military Specialist and ejecting them from the SC or MC? Because the unit as a whole will take a while to create. Then you go on to say that squads can be constructed, and that's really where you lose me. Are the squads set prior to being ejected, and if so what is the mechanic for this? If not, then i'm guessing it's just as simple as grouping, with the ability to arrange the units by unit. Again, i will have to ask what you plan the mechanic to be like. I'm not criticizing, i just need more information.

i will edit this post later when i have time. in it, i weill explain

EDIT:

Quote :

I don't understand this concept completely. I agree with the Tech Editor part. You create your unit with what FPs you have, give it a name and appropriate tags. Then when you say "produce", i guess you mean the process of building the TOs, training the Military Specialist and ejecting them from the SC or MC? Because the unit as a whole will take a while to create. Then you go on to say that squads can be constructed, and that's really where you lose me. Are the squads set prior to being ejected, and if so what is the mechanic for this? If not, then i'm guessing it's just as simple as grouping, with the ability to arrange the units by unit. Again, i will have to ask what you plan the mechanic to be like. I'm not criticizing, i just need more information.

when i say produce, i mean add it into the production queue, like when in civilization, for example, you set a town to produce a worker, and it takes so and so amount of turns.

making one unit would be, idk, 3 months, and while making 2 units would take 3.1 months, and making 10 units takes 5 months. kinda, if seen like a graph, starts high with a low slope, then gradually gets exponentially higher the more squad members. that was kind of a side note.

you make a specific type of squad within some sort of editor, by just making adding existing unit types into a formation, like my ambusher concept.
you then set your SC or MC to produce this whle squad at once, and when the training is complete, an entire squad in the formation you specified will appear.

my army concept is the same as the squad concept, just replace anywhere I said "unit" with "squad". (mass producing multiple squads at once, and ejecting at once)

The whole concept is in OP. Here I post what's new.

Squads - Squads are groups of military units. They become available after researching Military training, until then units are controlled like in every conventional RTS. Every squad has it's own banner. Squads are accessed by clicking this banner. Entire squad is commanded at once. Squads are destroyed when number of Active members is zero, number of Injured or Lost does not matter.

\--Squad creation - Squads can be created in two ways. The first is Squad types. These serve as templates for any future squads. You can create squads in MCs an SCs in this way. You can also merge or split squads directly on the battlefield, creating entirely new squads. Creating squads uses an amount of free Military Specialists, but total number of them is left untouched.

\--SC/MC squad manipulation -When squads enter SCs or MCs, they are stored in there. Squads can be merged, splitted, created or disbanded. Each of these action uses or frees an amount of free Military specialists. Each type of squad is displayed in a special tab, along with number of squads of this type. Each squad that is not full of Active members tries to heal and replace Injured and Lost members.

\--Squad formations - Every squad has a formation. That formation may be very loose (modern fireteams) or very tight (Roman legions), based on what player selects. Squads always try to keep their formation, with the sole exception of actively fighting an enemy (sometimes not even then).

\--Squad destruction - If a squad has no Active members left, it is destroyed, no matter how many Injured or Lost were in that squad. For every squad destroyed, there is a probability that a part of those injured will arrive to the nearest MC/SC, based on how close it is and on the terrain (also on who controls the terrain, if possible).


Experience - Every squad has an experience level. This is measured by 1 - 12 stars (ranks), 1 star being absolute greens and 12 elite of elites. Experience can be acquired by combat, and to some degree also by training and field duty. Experience improves almost anything a squad can do, from speed of movement, to health and combat effectivity to rate of using supplies.


This may look confusing, but all together it is aimed to be easy to control and manage.

Commander Keen wrote:

The whole concept is in OP. Here I post what's new.

Squads - Squads are groups of military units. They become available after researching Military training, until then units are controlled like in every conventional RTS. Every squad has it's own banner. Squads are accessed by clicking this banner. Entire squad is commanded at once. Squads are destroyed when number of Active members is zero, number of Injured or Lost does not matter.

\--Squad creation - Squads can be created in two ways. The first is Squad types. These serve as templates for any future squads. You can create squads in MCs an SCs in this way. You can also merge or split squads directly on the battlefield, creating entirely new squads. Creating squads uses an amount of free Military Specialists, but total number of them is left untouched.

\--SC/MC squad manipulation -When squads enter SCs or MCs, they are stored in there. Squads can be merged, splitted, created or disbanded. Each of these action uses or frees an amount of free Military specialists. Each type of squad is displayed in a special tab, along with number of squads of this type. Each squad that is not full of Active members tries to heal and replace Injured and Lost members.

\--Squad formations - Every squad has a formation. That formation may be very loose (modern fireteams) or very tight (Roman legions), based on what player selects. Squads always try to keep their formation, with the sole exception of actively fighting an enemy (sometimes not even then).

\--Squad destruction - If a squad has no Active members left, it is destroyed, no matter how many Injured or Lost were in that squad. For every squad destroyed, there is a probability that a part of those injured will arrive to the nearest MC/SC, based on how close it is and on the terrain (also on who controls the terrain, if possible).


Experience - Every squad has an experience level. This is measured by 1 - 12 stars (ranks), 1 star being absolute greens and 12 elite of elites. Experience can be acquired by combat, and to some degree also by training and field duty. Experience improves almost anything a squad can do, from speed of movement, to health and combat effectivity to rate of using supplies.


This may look confusing, but all together it is aimed to be easy to control and manage.

I don't understand this sentence: "Creating squads uses an amount of free Military Specialists, but total number of them is left untouched." What are "free" Military Specialists? And you still haven't explained the mechanic for creating squads. Is it a zoom in on the ejected squad and moving them around until they are in the wanted position and then pressing a "keep formation" button? Is it that a small screen comes up asking you about the formation and you move simple icons with names to set up the formation? I want to know the actual mechanic.

Commander Keen wrote:

\--Squad destruction - If a squad has no Active members left, it is destroyed, no matter how many Injured or Lost were in that squad. For every squad destroyed, there is a probability that a part of those injured will arrive to the nearest MC/SC, based on how close it is and on the terrain (also on who controls the terrain, if possible).

how about any wounded soldiers in a squad will slow down that squad like so in my example (i use examples a lot... maybe its because i am bad at explaining things, lol)

squad has 6/6 soldiers.
squad gets 1 soldier wounded
squad has 5/6 soldiers.
5 divided by 6 is 83%, so movement speed of squad is now 83%. (carrying wounded)
wounded soldier dies.
squad is now 5/5, but can be restored at an MC/SC to 6/6 in return for 1 experience (in your star concept, 1 star)
anyways
squad with 5/5, still on battlefield
since a wounded soldier has died, speed is increased to 100% again.
player decides battle may soon be lost.
player disables carrying wounded.
squad gets another soldier wounded.
squad is now 4/5.
however, player has disabled carrying wounded, so the wounded squad member now stays exactly where he is, forming his own squad. this squad is now squad 2.
squad 1, with 4/4 units, retreats to MC/SC to be restored to its original state of 6/6.
opposing team neglects to kill the left behind wounded soldier.
squad 2, with 0/1, gets healed enough that the wounded squad member can stand, but still has low health.
squad 2 reads 1/1.
players sends squad 2 to join up with a squad that has lost one member, squad 3.
squad 3, instead of reading 5/5, now reads 6/6, and loses no experience (stars), but some overall health, because of the dire states of the former squad 2 member.


now that i'm done with that sh-peal, you know some more of my ideas.

toxiciron wrote:

Commander Keen wrote:

\--Squad destruction - If a squad has no Active members left, it is destroyed, no matter how many Injured or Lost were in that squad. For every squad destroyed, there is a probability that a part of those injured will arrive to the nearest MC/SC, based on how close it is and on the terrain (also on who controls the terrain, if possible).

how about any wounded soldiers in a squad will slow down that squad like so in my example (i use examples a lot... maybe its because i am bad at explaining things, lol)

squad has 6/6 soldiers.
squad gets 1 soldier wounded
squad has 5/6 soldiers.
5 divided by 6 is 83%, so movement speed of squad is now 83%. (carrying wounded)
wounded soldier dies.
squad is now 5/5, but can be restored at an MC/SC to 6/6 in return for 1 experience (in your star concept, 1 star)
anyways
squad with 5/5, still on battlefield
since a wounded soldier has died, speed is increased to 100% again.
player decides battle may soon be lost.
player disables carrying wounded.
squad gets another soldier wounded.
squad is now 4/5.
however, player has disabled carrying wounded, so the wounded squad member now stays exactly where he is, forming his own squad. this squad is now squad 2.
squad 1, with 4/4 units, retreats to MC/SC to be restored to its original state of 6/6.
opposing team neglects to kill the left behind wounded soldier.
squad 2, with 0/1, gets healed enough that the wounded squad member can stand, but still has low health.
squad 2 reads 1/1.
players sends squad 2 to join up with a squad that has lost one member, squad 3.
squad 3, instead of reading 5/5, now reads 6/6, and loses no experience (stars), but some overall health, because of the dire states of the former squad 2 member.


now that i'm done with that sh-peal, you know some more of my ideas.

Too complex. Too gamey (what is with the trading experience for soldiers???). The point of squads is to make large battles possible without having your head explode from keeping track of so many troops. This kind of defeats that purpose.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

I don't understand this sentence: "Creating squads uses an amount of free Military Specialists, but total number of them is left untouched." What are "free" Military Specialists?

If you have 50% Military specialists in your population and you have 6000 population, you have 3000 free Military specialists. If you create 10 squads with 100 members each, it will "use" 1000 free Military specialists, leaving you with 2000 free, but your population total is still 50%. Is it clear now?

It needs better names though.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

And you still haven't explained the mechanic for creating squads. Is it a zoom in on the ejected squad and moving them around until they are in the wanted position and then pressing a "keep formation" button? Is it that a small screen comes up asking you about the formation and you move simple icons with names to set up the formation? I want to know the actual mechanic.

OK, I'l post when I get home.

I don't think this has been asked, so I'll ask: Can we choose how many troops are in a squad? And will there be a formation mini-editor or something like that?

Quote :

Too complex. Too gamey (what is with the trading experience for soldiers???). The point of squads is to make large battles possible without having your head explode from keeping track of so many troops. This kind of defeats that purpose.

I fully agree.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

And you still haven't explained the mechanic for creating squads. Is it a zoom in on the ejected squad and moving them around until they are in the wanted position and then pressing a "keep formation" button? Is it that a small screen comes up asking you about the formation and you move simple icons with names to set up the formation? I want to know the actual mechanic.

OK, here you go. After creating the actual squad (one button press in SC/MC) and deploying it, it will have a standard formation (default "Square", but players will be able to change it). Players will be able to simply select other preset formations ("Line", "Colon", ..), or they will be able to select "Custom formation" option that shows a small window like you mentioned. If they want the formation, they can save it and it will appear along preset ones.

I'm not adding it to OP yet, because there are probably things to change.

Quote :

Can we choose how many troops are in a squad?

How exactly do you mean it? You can assign as many members as you want to a squad, and you can merge and split them on the battlefield.

Commander Keen wrote:

US_of_Alaska wrote:

I don't understand this sentence: "Creating squads uses an amount of free Military Specialists, but total number of them is left untouched." What are "free" Military Specialists?

If you have 50% Military specialists in your population and you have 6000 population, you have 3000 free Military specialists. If you create 10 squads with 100 members each, it will "use" 1000 free Military specialists, leaving you with 2000 free, but your population total is still 50%. Is it clear now?

Huh? That doesn't make sense at all. How can you lose 1000 Military Specialists and still have the same amount?

Quote :

OK, here you go. After creating the actual squad (one button press in SC/MC) and deploying it, it will have a standard formation (default "Square", but players will be able to change it). Players will be able to simply select other preset formations ("Line", "Colon", ..), or they will be able to select "Custom formation" option that shows a small window like you mentioned. If they want the formation, they can save it and it will appear along preset ones.

I'm not adding it to OP yet, because there are probably things to change.

Perfect! I'm more than happy to see this in the OP.