Caste Systems

As of request by Alaska, here is a thread on Caste systems.

Caste systems are actually very simple, they are sub divisions of you empire that specialize in one or two areas. Use of a very simple Nation Editor tab will allow you to customize rules, clothing, and other oddities of your castes.

The advantage of castes over mere specialist is that caste members are usually 10-25% more effective at one or two things, and similarly worse in other areas. Their presence can often lead to segregation and after Aristocracy is researched, some castes may become "Superior" to others, leading to slave-like conditions for the lower castes.

That's it.

Discuss.

You know where i stand with this, Rex. I think that the Caste System Research should allow the Personal Freedoms slider to be set to 0. This would let the player absolutely decree the percentage of each Specialist in an SC.

it's a possibility that must be considered

US_of_Alaska wrote:

You know where i stand with this, Rex. I think that the Caste System Research should allow the Personal Freedoms slider to be set to 0. This would let the player absolutely decree the percentage of each Specialist in an SC.

I agree with you whole heartedly, that's a great way of expressing castes. However, I see this as the only way to allow player to create cultures that will truly be different from one another. Unless you know of any way to create a functonal differance, rather than a visual differance, I'd be all for it! My sugggestion here is clunkey and ineffecient gameplay-wise, but it is minimalist and allows for the sort of complex social interactions that make sapiants so distinctive.

You have a tendancy to plan as though this would be a 4-5X TBS, and while that element certainly should be there, Thrive is going to be a genre all it's own, having the ability to go in great depth, this should be present post-sapiance just as much as pre-sapiance.

This should be well integrated with the OE's "caste" system. That system allows the player to differentiate between different sexes and body types within a species.

~sciocont wrote:

This should be well integrated with the OE's "caste" system. That system allows the player to differentiate between different sexes and body types within a species.

I suppose

Two different things though. OE caste is physical, NE caste is biological.

Although, arguably their could be overlap. Historically, women have been seen as utterly seperate, and thus a seperate caste given our definition. There still are many rules binding the binary, as this transexual can speak for first hand.

Tenebrarum wrote:

US_of_Alaska wrote:

You know where i stand with this, Rex. I think that the Caste System Research should allow the Personal Freedoms slider to be set to 0. This would let the player absolutely decree the percentage of each Specialist in an SC.

I agree with you whole heartedly, that's a great way of expressing castes. However, I see this as the only way to allow player to create cultures that will truly be different from one another. Unless you know of any way to create a functonal differance, rather than a visual differance, I'd be all for it! My sugggestion here is clunkey and ineffecient gameplay-wise, but it is minimalist and allows for the sort of complex social interactions that make sapiants so distinctive.

You have a tendancy to plan as though this would be a 4-5X TBS, and while that element certainly should be there, Thrive is going to be a genre all it's own, having the ability to go in great depth, this should be present post-sapiance just as much as pre-sapiance.

Okay. I see that i'm not catering for all players. And it's a good thing that you're here to keep this in check, i think. I think you just need to explain your suggestions in closer relation to the game. Give a way to create these Castes. Maybe we need a section of the Nation Editor where we edit player-made animations and castes.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

Okay. I see that i'm not catering for all players. And it's a good thing that you're here to keep this in check, i think. I think you just need to explain your suggestions in closer relation to the game. Give a way to create these Castes. Maybe we need a section of the Nation Editor where we edit player-made animations and castes.

It's cool, you keep me in check too. That's why we're here.

I'm still in a very broad conceptual period here, I'll update this thread with clearer points as I think of them.

I was assuming that Player-made animations would go in the NE (Unless bound to a TO), clearly castes would fit in there as well.

Tenebrarum wrote:

US_of_Alaska wrote:

Okay. I see that i'm not catering for all players. And it's a good thing that you're here to keep this in check, i think. I think you just need to explain your suggestions in closer relation to the game. Give a way to create these Castes. Maybe we need a section of the Nation Editor where we edit player-made animations and castes.

It's cool, you keep me in check too. That's why we're here.

I'm still in a very broad conceptual period here, I'll update this thread with clearer points as I think of them.

I was assuming that Player-made animations would go in the NE (Unless bound to a TO), clearly castes would fit in there as well.

I'll be waiting for that update.

Alright, I think I've figured out how to do this, but it will require a fundimental rethinking of certain parts of the NE. If this is unacceptably complex, too difficult to add at this stage, or merely unneccicary, feel free to say so.

Basically, I have an idea for a culture editor.

The simplest way to understand a culture is to look at an induvidual going through their lives in it. As such, most of the culture editor consists of timelines and calenders.

The timelines detail how an organisms grows. The player adds and subtracts events that mark the life of the being. These events include coming-of-age ceremonies, education, when jobs are taken, marriage/unions, that sort of thing.

Ex.: Birth: Parental Juristiction.
Parental Care: Begins at 2 years, ends at event:[Public Education], End Result: Basic AI improved X%, Worker + Gatherer Specialist options unlocked.
Public Education: Begins at 4 years, Ends at 12 years, End Result: Basic AI improved X%, Literate, Military + Entertainer Specialist options unlocked.
CHOICE
Option 1: Higher Education: Begins at 12 years, Ends at 20 years, End Result: May Become Govener Candidate, Research Specialist option unlocked, Leave Parental Juritiction.
Option 2: Leave parental juristiction: Begins at CHOICE, Ends at Death, End Result: May become Specialist

This list goes on untill death. All things you can add to this list are saved under particular tabs and can be edited depending on what they are, and what catagories they fall under. For example, education could be edited to have multiple levels, as shown above, so that in the case of interuptions of the education, the org. can specialize right away. Education could also be edited to involve, say political propaganda, be class-based or one-to-one, government funded or private tuition. This list goes on.

Now, let's look at each induvidual part, shall we?

Quote :

Birth: Parental Juristiction.

Obviously 'Born' is a term that would have to be changed depending on the organism's reproductive system. However, when an egg, it still can be used in this system. The Juristiction part determines who will be caring for the child, whether it's communal, institutionalized, parental, etc.

Quote :

Parental Care: Begins at 2 years, ends at event:[Public Education], End Result: Basic AI improved X%, Worker + Gatherer Specialist options unlocked.

All events on the timeline with the exception of 'birth' and death, require a Begining trigger, an ending trigger, and a end result. Events will have defult end results, and these can only be edited within a certain degree. For example, Parental Care can only improve basic AI by a fixed amount, and this effect cannot be removed, but you can add the worker + gatherer specialist unlocks as they do not require much education. Adding these however will cause the education to require more time, so as to have the time to learn these extra skills.

Quote :

Public Education: Begins at 4 years, Ends at 12 years, End Result: Basic AI improved X%, Literate, Military + Entertainer Specialist options unlocked.

The most important part here is the effect of the org. becoming literate. All orgs. are classified as either literate or illiterate. Literate orgs. give minuet bonuses to research output, and happiness. They also have the ability to learn on their own certain skills not specifically taught to them in their lives. They also receive an AI bonus. All of this is tied to the amount of writting in your nation. Lots of books, signs, pretty much any writting on a TO, will add to these bonuses. Having very few means that you will see the opposite affects occur in a literate organism.

Quote :

CHOICE
Option 1: Higher Education: Begins at CHOICE, Ends at 20 years, End Result: May Become Govener Candidate, Research Specialist option unlocked, Leave Parental Juristiction.
Option 2: Leave parental juristiction: Begins at CHOICE, Ends at Death, End Result: May become Specialist

Occasionally, the player may add 'choices' these are randomlay selected based on cultural history (Less likely to take an option not present in the past. This disapates over time.) and whether or not the government is encouraging a particular choice. Leaving juristiction can either be an end result, or an event.

Castes unlocks the ability to make multiple timelines such as these. Aristocracy allows the player to select one cast and define it as 'superior' to another, using a basic pyramid.

In addition, you are able to select an over-arching cultural theme. These themes function as basic virtues that promote different ideologies, and have different positive and negative effects. These are chosen early on either by player-actions or selection in the editor. They cannot be changed without a relvolution. Examples include Honor (Sparta, Feudal Japan?), Love (Medieval Europe), Wisdom (Athens, Most Mayan cities), Liberty (America, Post-Cromwell England), etc. Effects will include bonuses and penalties for all SCs, units, and nation-to-nation interactions, as well as speeding up certain researches.

WOW... That's alot. I'm sorry I'm so vague. Discuss?

[/longpost is long]

For all reading the above post, read it whole. The first part is a bit bland, but then it gets interesting.

Great concept, Rex. I would definitely want to see it in the game, it will fit all players, since it's complexity depends on how they do it.

i find the concept interesting, as long as it takes more options in consideration like military training.
Aplying it to a caste system sounds good

Tenebrarum wrote:

[/longpost is long]

Other than your incessant use of the old name for the editor, i don't really have a problem with it. As long as the less in-depth players are not forced to do this or have major side effects.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

Other than your incessant use of the old name for the editor, i don't really have a problem with it. As long as the less in-depth players are not forced to do this or have major side effects.

What old name?

And no massivley negative side effects, no.

P.S. This might end up having to be more of a flowchart than a timeline.

I looked it over and it looks pretty good, Rex. I assume that the ages will be able to be modified somewhat, possibly as a percentage of the species' (or even class's) average life expectancey? It would only make sense that if you have fourty years to live you wouldn't spend thirty of them in school, but a longer life expectancy could allow more time for education.

Poisson wrote:

I looked it over and it looks pretty good, Rex. I assume that the ages will be able to be modified somewhat, possibly as a percentage of the species' (or even class's) average life expectancey? It would only make sense that if you have fourty years to live you wouldn't spend thirty of them in school, but a longer life expectancy could allow more time for education.

The timeline streaches from your creature's life to their death. If they only lived forty years, you'd only get a forty-year long timeline.

Not sure what to do with multiple year-lengths though.

Tenebrarum wrote:

US_of_Alaska wrote:

Other than your incessant use of the old name for the editor, i don't really have a problem with it. As long as the less in-depth players are not forced to do this or have major side effects.

What old name?

And no massivley negative side effects, no.

P.S. This might end up having to be more of a flowchart than a timeline.

Culture Editor. It's the Nation Editor, and you acknowledged that then used both.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

Culture Editor. It's the Nation Editor, and you acknowledged that then used both.

I know I said that, what I meant is that FUNCTIONALLY this is a culture editor. It's part of the NE of course.

Tenebrarum wrote:

US_of_Alaska wrote:

Culture Editor. It's the Nation Editor, and you acknowledged that then used both.

I know I said that, what I meant is that FUNCTIONALLY this is a culture editor. It's part of the NE of course.

So maybe it's like a Culture Section of the Nation Editor?

US_of_Alaska wrote:

Tenebrarum wrote:

US_of_Alaska wrote:

Culture Editor. It's the Nation Editor, and you acknowledged that then used both.

I know I said that, what I meant is that FUNCTIONALLY this is a culture editor. It's part of the NE of course.

So maybe it's like a Culture Section of the Nation Editor?

Yup. It would contain all the parts that the "Entertainment and Aesthetics" tab already contains as well.

Tenebrarum wrote:

US_of_Alaska wrote:

Tenebrarum wrote:

US_of_Alaska wrote:

Culture Editor. It's the Nation Editor, and you acknowledged that then used both.

I know I said that, what I meant is that FUNCTIONALLY this is a culture editor. It's part of the NE of course.

So maybe it's like a Culture Section of the Nation Editor?

Yup. It would contain all the parts that the "Entertainment and Aesthetics" tab already contains as well.

Entertainment and Aesthetics is currently under the Society Section. It might seem a little empty without the entertainment and aesthetics stuff, but i guess we'll see when we have some drawn concepts and prototypes.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

Entertainment and Aesthetics is currently under the Society Section. It might seem a little empty without the entertainment and aesthetics stuff, but i guess we'll see when we have some drawn concepts and prototypes.

I know, I'm not suggesting this replace the society tab, as the society tab has many governmental things as well.

EDIT: There are also a number of small, miscellaneous behaivioral attributes that I feel should be included to this mini-editor to be descided. These would include things along the lines of: Whether people hoard up food, wasting some but always having enough vs. looking for food on a daily basis.

These tiny behaivioral trait effect not only AI, but many gameplay aspects to. The example I used is a difference between American and European culture, and the effects waste levels in a major way.

Is this reasonable?

Tenebrarum wrote:

US_of_Alaska wrote:

Entertainment and Aesthetics is currently under the Society Section. It might seem a little empty without the entertainment and aesthetics stuff, but i guess we'll see when we have some drawn concepts and prototypes.

I know, I'm not suggesting this replace the society tab, as the society tab has many governmental things as well.

EDIT: There are also a number of small, miscellaneous behaivioral attributes that I feel should be included to this mini-editor to be descided. These would include things along the lines of: Whether people hoard up food, wasting some but always having enough vs. looking for food on a daily basis.

These tiny behaivioral trait effect not only AI, but many gameplay aspects to. The example I used is a difference between American and European culture, and the effects waste levels in a major way.

Is this reasonable?

What else is there? I can't see it being viable for gameplay if it's just one thing.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

What else is there? I can't see it being viable for gameplay if it's just one thing.

Definately not one thing. This would indclude, say, personal vs. mass transit, chastity vs. sexual liberation, compact vs. sprawling SCs, culturally introspective vs. culturally invasive. All manner of miscellaneous little traits that still have significant effect on gameplay.

I'd imagine these'd go in the section for cultural theme.

Tenebrarum wrote:

US_of_Alaska wrote:

What else is there? I can't see it being viable for gameplay if it's just one thing.

Definately not one thing. This would indclude, say, personal vs. mass transit, chastity vs. sexual liberation, compact vs. sprawling SCs, culturally introspective vs. culturally invasive. All manner of miscellaneous little traits that still have significant effect on gameplay.

I'd imagine these'd go in the section for cultural theme.

Makes sense.