Decision Time

Subject: Re: Decision Time Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:16 pm

US_of_Alaska wrote:

Tenebrarum wrote:

US_of_Alaska wrote:: http://www.mediafire.com/?sbezu0wiht09ib6

Have a look and see what you think, Rex.

It just needs refining. No way to just say all the issues.

Also Smoth says that the branches system allows for cross branch requirement, and that it mainly serves as organizational. Sound like a plan?

I don't quite understand. How is it only organisational?

Seperates out researches into three main catagories.

Subject: Re: Decision Time Mon Jan 31, 2011 10:05 pm

woo hoo !00% percent for branch
MY VOTE!

I would call it a Tech Web instead of Branch

Subject: Re: Decision Time Tue Feb 01, 2011 12:30 am

unless i have a visuall idea of both i cant deside

Subject: Re: Decision Time Tue Feb 01, 2011 12:48 pm

Is there a thread somewhere that lays out the "Branch" idea? I don't think I've ever encountered it in a game before, so I'm having a difficult time imagining how it works - and how it's different than the tree.

EDIT:
Also, I just want to say that I think the Inventions idea is bangin', and opens up a bunch of interesting gameplay ideas upon which I will comment later, after this is decided.

Subject: Re: Decision Time Tue Feb 01, 2011 2:22 pm

Okay. My two cents, spoilered for your convenience.

Spoiler:

Newcomer Posts : 88 Reputation : 0 Join date : 2010-10-27

For the branch idea, think of Sword Of The Stars tech tree. It works very similar to the invention system.

Subject: Re: Decision Time Wed Feb 02, 2011 12:11 am

Spoiler:

Mysterious_Calligrapher wrote:: Agriculture function part plough: Animal Husbandry convenient, but unnecessary. Some species would be strong enough to pull it, and humans have used (small) ploughs and similar implements before without beasts of burden. I think Animal Husbandry should increase the efficiency.

Well, there'd be no increase in efficiency unless the player attached them to a beast of burden. But i agree withthe rest of the statement. It makes sense that a plow can be used from agriculture on, but it would require stone or wooden tools.

Mysterious_Calligrapher wrote:: - In Sailing's TO's, a Lighthouse needs fire as an additional prerequisite.

That's true. Will add a note.

Mysterious_Calligrapher wrote:: - Trade should probably have sailing as an alternative requirement too. Though that might not fit so well when "Sailing and Trade" is one of the possible requirements for seafaring... which, come to think of it, is more of where the lighthouse should go.

Mysterious_Calligrapher wrote:: - I'm not certain about the "Monotheism boosts conversion rates." The romans did just fine adopting local gods and persuading locals to accept, at least superficially, their polytheistic religion.

One of the things about monotheism is that it is not lenient. "There is one god. We are right and everything else is wrong." This ultimatum converted people, like it or not. So it's logical that one of the bonuses from a Monotheistic religion is that it has better conversion rates.

Mysterious_Calligrapher wrote:: - Logically, an "alphabet" is not necessesary to "literature" (check out the ancient egyptians, who never could figure out if their hieroglyphs were letters or actual symbols) but as it's necessary for the spread of literature beyond the priveleged few, and as it aids our organization, I say keep it. Oral tradition should be an additional prerequisite for Lit.

That's true, i didn't think of that link.

Mysterious_Calligrapher wrote:: - What exactly is the reasoning behind Democracy requiring an alphabet?

I think it's because alphabet allows better communication of new ideas.

Mysterious_Calligrapher wrote:: - Aesthetics might also need trade.

I don't see why.

Mysterious_Calligrapher wrote:: - I understand why sanitation would require canals. But what about in desert areas? My alternative would be to have "irrigation" as an invention much earlier on. (Integrating canals and irrigation might be a little stringent for just irrigation.)

Well the player and ai can make irrigation using simple commands to workers, they don't need a research for it.

Mysterious_Calligrapher wrote:: - Guilds should probably have aesthetics and trade as suitable alternatives to machinery.

This makes sense.

Mysterious_Calligrapher wrote:: - For Chivalry, Feudalism should be an alternative to Civil Service, probably.

Makes sense, they're all societal and based on loyalty.

Mysterious_Calligrapher wrote:: - What exactly does a screw propeller have to do with water sports? Am I missing something?

I'm not sure, but there was a reason. We'll see what Rex says.

Mysterious_Calligrapher wrote:: - For firefighting, the hose should probably require some later stage manufacturing type thing as well as sanitation.

Why does firefighting need a hose?

Mysterious_Calligrapher wrote:: - Civil service should probably be added as an alternative trigger for Compulsory education.

As a trigger? Those researches are a long ways apart.

Mysterious_Calligrapher wrote:: - Flight can also be achieved in hot air baloons or dirigibles (chemistry/thermodynamics/replaceable parts, at least.) Ultralight aircraft have also been made, some of them running on bicycle power. Maybe we should split into "flight" the discovery and "air vessels" the invention.

Makes sense. Would balloons be an invention?

Mysterious_Calligrapher wrote:: - Public transport: Do we have a sub category for general services for the populace? (Somewhere near "welfare," probably.)

What do you mean subcategory?

Mysterious_Calligrapher wrote:: - Under "Computer" the actual "computer" item spans everything from the enigma machine (world war 2 era) through that thing with the vaccum tubes in the 60's/70's, to what I'm using now. I can look up some old names that generalize that far if you like.

Didn't i have that covered in FPs? I'll have to check...

Subject: Re: Decision Time Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:15 pm

We're getting OT here people. Let's keep this thread about the basic idea of Tree vs. Branch vs. Alternative.

Personally, I think that neither way really does anything. Our issues are present and impossible to fix by one massive change. We just need to over-polish this. That's all.

Subject: Re: Decision Time Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:08 pm

Tenebrarum wrote:: We're getting OT here people. Let's keep this thread about the basic idea of Tree vs. Branch vs. Alternative.

Personally, I think that neither way really does anything. Our issues are present and impossible to fix by one massive change. We just need to over-polish this. That's all.

What do you mean by polish it?

Subject: Re: Decision Time Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:45 pm

US_of_Alaska wrote:

Tenebrarum wrote:: We're getting OT here people. Let's keep this thread about the basic idea of Tree vs. Branch vs. Alternative.

Personally, I think that neither way really does anything. Our issues are present and impossible to fix by one massive change. We just need to over-polish this. That's all.

What do you mean by polish it?

I mean that instead of rearanging anything, just work on what we have. There are no major flaws in either system, so the only flaws present will be the fault of us, those who create the researches.

Subject: Re: Decision Time Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:39 pm

Tenebrarum wrote:

US_of_Alaska wrote:: What do you mean by polish it?

I mean that instead of rearanging anything, just work on what we have. There are no major flaws in either system, so the only flaws present will be the fault of us, those who create the researches.

Okay. So back to working on the research list thread, right?

Subject: Re: Decision Time Wed Feb 02, 2011 7:22 pm

US_of_Alaska wrote:

Tenebrarum wrote:

US_of_Alaska wrote:: What do you mean by polish it?

I mean that instead of rearanging anything, just work on what we have. There are no major flaws in either system, so the only flaws present will be the fault of us, those who create the researches.

Okay. So back to working on the research list thread, right?

Yup. Impliment inventions though. Belgium fine idea.

Subject: Re: Decision Time Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:28 pm

Tenebrarum wrote:

US_of_Alaska wrote:

Tenebrarum wrote:

US_of_Alaska wrote:: What do you mean by polish it?

I mean that instead of rearanging anything, just work on what we have. There are no major flaws in either system, so the only flaws present will be the fault of us, those who create the researches.

Okay. So back to working on the research list thread, right?

Yup. Impliment inventions though. Belgium fine idea.

Will do my best to do so.

Subject: Re: Decision Time Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:11 pm

I think we should have a combination of both, they both have their advantages. But there isn't an option for that...

I vote for a tree with branches.

Subject: Re: Decision Time Thu Feb 03, 2011 3:19 pm

I don't have any idea of how that would look, and part the variability tech webs have would be wasted. Show how do you mean the Tech tree with branches.

Subject: Re: Decision Time Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:26 pm

Redstar wrote:: Is there a thread somewhere that lays out the "Branch" idea? I don't think I've ever encountered it in a game before, so I'm having a difficult time imagining how it works - and how it's different than the tree.

Here You Go

US_of_Alaska wrote:: Tree
Pros - All connected, easy to follow, triggers
Cons - Sometimes too many prerequisites can clutter and slow progress

Branch
Pros - Allows more variation through inventions
Cons - Not as many researches, some researches don't have inventions, this will make them seem less important

Let me add a Con to Tree, No Diversity.
Also, all Researches would have inventions. The Branches in the tree are the researches, and the minor things related to that branch are put in as inventions.

As I mentioned in my thread, I could work out a larger example for how the Research Web could look. Would anyone like me to do this?

Subject: Re: Decision Time Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:54 am

That would probably be a good idea.
-Waap.

Subject: Re: Decision Time Fri Feb 04, 2011 1:10 am

Smothmoth wrote:

Redstar wrote:: Is there a thread somewhere that lays out the "Branch" idea? I don't think I've ever encountered it in a game before, so I'm having a difficult time imagining how it works - and how it's different than the tree.

Here You Go

US_of_Alaska wrote:: Tree
Pros - All connected, easy to follow, triggers
Cons - Sometimes too many prerequisites can clutter and slow progress

Branch
Pros - Allows more variation through inventions
Cons - Not as many researches, some researches don't have inventions, this will make them seem less important

Let me add a Con to Tree, No Diversity.
Also, all Researches would have inventions. The Branches in the tree are the researches, and the minor things related to that branch are put in as inventions.

As I mentioned in my thread, I could work out a larger example for how the Research Web could look. Would anyone like me to do this?

How can every research have inventions? We have tried to convert all the researches we can into inventions, and they are still hugely outnumbered. Also, if we have researches and inventions how does the web offer more diversity other than penalising players for changing research paths?

Subject: Re: Decision Time Fri Feb 04, 2011 1:22 am

US_of_Alaska wrote:: How can every research have inventions? We have tried to convert all the researches we can into inventions, and they are still hugely outnumbered.

It was working pretty well for the example I was creating, I'll finish that up by tomorrow and post it.

US_of_Alaska wrote:: Also, if we have researches and inventions how does the web offer more diversity other than penalising players for changing research paths?

"Web" was just a name, my idea was pretty much always just the original tree with the inventions system / making it non-linear. I was also talking about a way to organize/visualize the tree, but I guess that got mixed up with the actually gameplay elements.

Anyway I'll finish that example, I think having it will help a ton.

Subject: Re: Decision Time Fri Feb 04, 2011 6:01 am

It doesn't matter if we have a web or tree, that is just visualisation. Both trees and webs can be made non-linear, the web just makes non-linear paths easier to read. Non-linearity really depends only on how the tree/web is made.

A large part of the non-linearity in your concept comes from branches. This will require quite a big change in the current tree, as most researches in it are meant as Breakthroughs.

Subject: Re: Decision Time Fri Feb 04, 2011 3:09 pm

Commander Keen wrote:: It doesn't matter if we have a web or tree, that is just visualisation. Both trees and webs can be made non-linear, the web just makes non-linear paths easier to read. Non-linearity really depends only on how the tree/web is made.

Yes, but people wanted a visualization of the concept, so I think working out a rough example would be a good idea. It doesn't have to be how we represent it in game, but having a visual will help everyone understand the concept better.

Commander Keen wrote:: A large part of the non-linearity in your concept comes from branches. This will require quite a big change in the current tree, as most researches in it are meant as Breakthroughs.

Some changes yes, but I think they are worth it.

Subject: Re: Decision Time Fri Feb 04, 2011 7:22 pm

I think the problem is that we still don't quite understand how the web is supposed to improve diversity, other than inventions, which we all agree should be included.

Subject: Re: Decision Time Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:56 pm

US_of_Alaska wrote:: I think the problem is that we still don't quite understand how the web is supposed to improve diversity, other than inventions, which we all agree should be included.

Inventions were pretty much it I guess, but what I was proposing had inventions greatly outnumber researches. Researches would be general areas of research, the inventions would represent all the byproducts of the effort focused into that field.

I've looked through the current research list, in my opinion the majority of the items could be considered inventions. While many could be seen as essential breakthroughs, they were still usually discovered by random chance. We could just greatly increase the discovery chance for the really important ones.

As for that example I was working on, I haven't had time to really put any work into it. I don't see myself having much free time in the next few weeks, so we will just have to do without the example.

Subject: Re: Decision Time Sat Feb 05, 2011 4:15 am

@Alaska: The web itself does nothing. We could have a classical tree without losing any diversity, it's just easier to organise and read. The only problem with web is that it has to be created in graphical form, unlike our current tree.

@Smoth: The only problem I see might be the number of inventions to branches. If we create too many branches with lots of inventions in them, then the player will get a "Your nation has discovered X" message every 5 seconds. If we don't create enough branches, then there will not be much diversity in research options, mostly after discovering the Scientific method. If we don't create enough inventions, variability will be severely limited. It will have to be made just right. A HUGE amount of work.

Subject: Re: Decision Time Sat Feb 05, 2011 4:16 am

Smothmoth wrote:

US_of_Alaska wrote:: I think the problem is that we still don't quite understand how the web is supposed to improve diversity, other than inventions, which we all agree should be included.

Inventions were pretty much it I guess, but what I was proposing had inventions greatly outnumber researches. Researches would be general areas of research, the inventions would represent all the byproducts of the effort focused into that field.

I've looked through the current research list, in my opinion the majority of the items could be considered inventions. While many could be seen as essential breakthroughs, they were still usually discovered by random chance. We could just greatly increase the discovery chance for the really important ones.

As for that example I was working on, I haven't had time to really put any work into it. I don't see myself having much free time in the next few weeks, so we will just have to do without the example.

Okay. This'll help people who have a problem with the whole "sociological researches aren't researched" thing.

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