Posts : 285 Reputation : 12 Join date : 2010-07-06 Age : 36 Location : Australia, Queensland
Subject: Re: Plant Gameplay Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:32 pm
For a defensive organ we could have something that ejects poison in the direction it's facing (you would have to grow them wisely) or releases dangerous spores (possibly that act like a cordyceps fungi with ants).
~sciocont Overall Team Lead
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Subject: Re: Plant Gameplay Thu Dec 29, 2011 5:06 pm
GamerXA wrote:
For a defensive organ we could have something that ejects poison in the direction it's facing (you would have to grow them wisely) or releases dangerous spores (possibly that act like a cordyceps fungi with ants).
For those who don't know how insanely disturbing that fungus is:
tklarenb Learner
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Subject: Re: Plant Gameplay Thu Dec 29, 2011 5:23 pm
GamerXA wrote:
For a defensive organ we could have something that ejects poison in the direction it's facing (you would have to grow them wisely) or releases dangerous spores (possibly that act like a cordyceps fungi with ants).
I've come up with one similar to those. I don't think it exists in the real world, but I think it's evolutionarily feasible. How about a pod that holds a large, retractable thorn that shoots out like a spear when the plant is touched (not shot out completely, it would just go back into the pod afterwards)?
GamerXA Regular
Posts : 285 Reputation : 12 Join date : 2010-07-06 Age : 36 Location : Australia, Queensland
Subject: Re: Plant Gameplay Thu Dec 29, 2011 6:27 pm
tklarenb wrote:
GamerXA wrote:
For a defensive organ we could have something that ejects poison in the direction it's facing (you would have to grow them wisely) or releases dangerous spores (possibly that act like a cordyceps fungi with ants).
I've come up with one similar to those. I don't think it exists in the real world, but I think it's evolutionarily feasible. How about a pod that holds a large, retractable thorn that shoots out like a spear when the plant is touched (not shot out completely, it would just go back into the pod afterwards)?
There would have to be some way to create enough force to eject an object heavy enough to do sufficient damage to the target. There would also have to be some way of triggering it and have the projectile connected by a 'tether' or grow back into place. It could also possibly adapted to be used by a carnivorous plant as a sort of combination of a harpoon and a straw.
I suspect all of these defense systems would be handled by the same system in the Organ Editor?
~sciocont Overall Team Lead
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Subject: Re: Plant Gameplay Thu Dec 29, 2011 7:00 pm
GamerXA wrote:
tklarenb wrote:
GamerXA wrote:
For a defensive organ we could have something that ejects poison in the direction it's facing (you would have to grow them wisely) or releases dangerous spores (possibly that act like a cordyceps fungi with ants).
I've come up with one similar to those. I don't think it exists in the real world, but I think it's evolutionarily feasible. How about a pod that holds a large, retractable thorn that shoots out like a spear when the plant is touched (not shot out completely, it would just go back into the pod afterwards)?
There would have to be some way to create enough force to eject an object heavy enough to do sufficient damage to the target. There would also have to be some way of triggering it and have the projectile connected by a 'tether' or grow back into place. It could also possibly adapted to be used by a carnivorous plant as a sort of combination of a harpoon and a straw.
I suspect all of these defense systems would be handled by the same system in the Organ Editor?
Subject: Re: Plant Gameplay Fri Dec 30, 2011 9:28 pm
Okay, I've avoided posting here for a while now, but this has been bugging me and I'm just gonna spit it out.
Plants are completely unaware of everything around them. They do not think, or strategize, or strive. They simply react. Everything they do is genetically coded in as automatic response.
The same is true for microbes, but I did originally take offense to gameplay there as well. It was only when I saw the overwhelming support for it's inclusion that I got behind it.
However, plant gameplay is another matter for me. The way we've designed Thrive thus far has made everything about progression. Each step forward is reward, each new idea or clever solution applauded. While all suggestions here sound like they'd make a remarkable game, I feel that it seems distinctly un-Thrive-like, and requires an entirely different setup to what we already have set out. One of the things that makes Thrive so appealing to me is the way it's controls and UI are virtually identical in every part of the game, and how each stage is a tutorial for the next. Plant gameplay sounds fascinating, but completely sideways. Thrive is, if nothing else, supposed to be smooth, clean, and seamless. Doesn't this add a really big seam right down the middle?
Zetal Newcomer
Posts : 81 Reputation : 1 Join date : 2011-12-18 Age : 31 Location : Earth, USA
Subject: Re: Plant Gameplay Fri Dec 30, 2011 9:31 pm
Tenebrarum wrote:
Okay, I've avoided posting here for a while now, but this has been bugging me and I'm just gonna spit it out.
Plants are completely unaware of everything around them. They do not think, or strategize, or strive. They simply react. Everything they do is genetically coded in as automatic response.
The same is true for microbes, but I did originally take offense to gameplay there as well. It was only when I saw the overwhelming support for it's inclusion that I got behind it.
However, plant gameplay is another matter for me. The way we've designed Thrive thus far has made everything about progression. Each step forward is reward, each new idea or clever solution applauded. While all suggestions here sound like they'd make a remarkable game, I feel that it seems distinctly un-Thrive-like, and requires an entirely different setup to what we already have set out. One of the things that makes Thrive so appealing to me is the way it's controls and UI are virtually identical in every part of the game, and how each stage is a tutorial for the next. Plant gameplay sounds fascinating, but completely sideways. Thrive is, if nothing else, supposed to be smooth, clean, and seamless. Doesn't this add a really big seam right down the middle?
I share your opinion, to a degree. I'm a little upset that the gameplay brainstorm has gone this way, but at the same time, I really want to include plants, and I also want being a plant to be exciting. I've been wracking my brain for a solution since this topic first cropped up, and it's one of those things were it feels like it's on the tip of my tongue, but I really just can't grasp it...and so I'd rather have this style of gameplay than none at all. It's a fantastic medium for the evolution of a plant to take place. Albeit maybe not quite what Thrive is about so much, but it's an excellent method of inclusion.
tklarenb Learner
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Subject: Re: Plant Gameplay Fri Dec 30, 2011 11:15 pm
Tenebrarum wrote:
Okay, I've avoided posting here for a while now, but this has been bugging me and I'm just gonna spit it out.
Plants are completely unaware of everything around them. They do not think, or strategize, or strive. They simply react. Everything they do is genetically coded in as automatic response.
The same is true for microbes, but I did originally take offense to gameplay there as well. It was only when I saw the overwhelming support for it's inclusion that I got behind it.
However, plant gameplay is another matter for me. The way we've designed Thrive thus far has made everything about progression. Each step forward is reward, each new idea or clever solution applauded. While all suggestions here sound like they'd make a remarkable game, I feel that it seems distinctly un-Thrive-like, and requires an entirely different setup to what we already have set out. One of the things that makes Thrive so appealing to me is the way it's controls and UI are virtually identical in every part of the game, and how each stage is a tutorial for the next. Plant gameplay sounds fascinating, but completely sideways. Thrive is, if nothing else, supposed to be smooth, clean, and seamless. Doesn't this add a really big seam right down the middle?
I agree this isn't that realistic and does not fit in too well with the rest of Thrive. If there was a way I could think of that would fit in better, I would have posted it. But plant gameplay is, as you said, extremely sideways compared to that of creatures, so I think it's going to have to be this way if we're going to include it.
~sciocont Overall Team Lead
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Subject: Re: Plant Gameplay Sat Dec 31, 2011 12:27 am
i'm not completely onboard with plant gameplay as it is right now, but I will say that plants aren't as straightforward as you may think. there's a whole lot of random variation between them, variation caused by genetics and a chaotic environment. No two trees look the same. This allows us to wedge a player into the growth process and guide the growth of a plant. Something we should be talking about here but are not is meristems, which are basically the growth regions of the plant. These are the areas which lants lengthen and produce new limbs, roots, leaves, etc. We also need to discuss monocot/dicot systems and how they will affect plants.
The Uteen Sandbox Team Lead
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Subject: Re: Plant Gameplay Sat Dec 31, 2011 7:00 am
Plant gameplay is indeed very different to animal gameplay. It has to be, this is a whole different kingdom of life. However, while being incredibly differing, the player will be evolving to this point from microbial gameplay, just taking a different direction to non-sessile organisms, focusing on growth. The controls will be introduced over a period of time just as an animal’s are, but the controls introduced will just be different ones. This is fine, in my opinion.
I don’t think the difference in gameplay will be too different for players unless they use God Powers take control of a plant without any understanding of the gameplay. I don’t see this as too much of a problem, a dialog box warning ‘Plant gameplay is a rather unique form of gameplay, it is recommended to have taken the plant evolutionary path to get an initial understanding of the gameplay.’ should be enough.
Assuming the AI plants will be just using a set of automatic genetic responses to stimuli, as Tenebrarum said, then it shouldn’t be too unrealistic. Of course, to an observer, the player’s plant will appear more unnatural in contrast, particularly if the player has yet to grasp what they’re doing, but not enough to ruin the gameplay. If we’re going to make sessile organisms viable for being controlled, the suggested concepts are our best ideas so far. I particularly like the shatter-petal interface, it’s very unique and could be adapted for use in elsewhere (Editors?).
So I’m back from my holiday, and have just missed a rather interesting discussion… Sniff.
tklarenb Learner
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Subject: Re: Plant Gameplay Mon Jan 23, 2012 3:48 pm
~sciocont wrote:
i'm not completely onboard with plant gameplay as it is right now, but I will say that plants aren't as straightforward as you may think. there's a whole lot of random variation between them, variation caused by genetics and a chaotic environment. No two trees look the same. This allows us to wedge a player into the growth process and guide the growth of a plant. Something we should be talking about here but are not is meristems, which are basically the growth regions of the plant. These are the areas which lants lengthen and produce new limbs, roots, leaves, etc. We also need to discuss monocot/dicot systems and how they will affect plants.
Can you sum up the difference between monocots and dicots in simple language? I looked them up on Wikipedia, but I didn't understand some of the more advanced terminology.
And with meristems, isn't that kind of covered with the nodes? The player will place the part desired, where a meristem forms and then develops into the part placed (in other words, the part isn't formed instantly, it has to grow). If that's not in tandem with the definition of maristem (again, Wikipedia is somewhat confusing to non botanists), then can you give a more in depth definition than the one above?
~sciocont Overall Team Lead
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Subject: Re: Plant Gameplay Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:30 pm
tklarenb wrote:
~sciocont wrote:
i'm not completely onboard with plant gameplay as it is right now, but I will say that plants aren't as straightforward as you may think. there's a whole lot of random variation between them, variation caused by genetics and a chaotic environment. No two trees look the same. This allows us to wedge a player into the growth process and guide the growth of a plant. Something we should be talking about here but are not is meristems, which are basically the growth regions of the plant. These are the areas which lants lengthen and produce new limbs, roots, leaves, etc. We also need to discuss monocot/dicot systems and how they will affect plants.
Can you sum up the difference between monocots and dicots in simple language? I looked them up on Wikipedia, but I didn't understand some of the more advanced terminology.
And with meristems, isn't that kind of covered with the nodes? The player will place the part desired, where a meristem forms and then develops into the part placed (in other words, the part isn't formed instantly, it has to grow). If that's not in tandem with the definition of maristem (again, Wikipedia is somewhat confusing to non botanists), then can you give a more in depth definition than the one above?
Meristems do act like nodes here. Good point. Monocots are simpler plants than dicots- they can only grow upwards, but not outwards, so they cannot become very large or woody, with the exception of bamboo. Dicots have branching veins ans scattered vascular bundles whereas monocots have parallel veins and vascular bundles in rings (hence the ringed shape of wood).
The distinction between monocots and dicots is the number of cotyledons -seed leaves- that they have. this just refers to the number of leaves that they have when they sprout. The real reason why these distinctions are important is that plants would have vastly different growth options if they played as monocots as opposed to dicots.
tklarenb Learner
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Subject: Re: Plant Gameplay Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:01 pm
~sciocont wrote:
Meristems do act like nodes here. Good point. Monocots are simpler plants than dicots- they can only grow upwards, but not outwards, so they cannot become very large or woody, with the exception of bamboo. Dicots have branching veins ans scattered vascular bundles whereas monocots have parallel veins and vascular bundles in rings (hence the ringed shape of wood).
The distinction between monocots and dicots is the number of cotyledons -seed leaves- that they have. this just refers to the number of leaves that they have when they sprout. The real reason why these distinctions are important is that plants would have vastly different growth options if they played as monocots as opposed to dicots.
Thanks, that helped a lot. So basically monocots are grasses and similar plants, while dicots are pretty much everything else, right? You're right, that does make a difference. Monocots would have much less options on where to grow, in fact, basically only one, up (not counting roots), making gameplay much more difficult. And since in real life most monocots don't grow large, maybe we should find a way to make it so the player has to emphasize more on streamlining productivity than growth, although how, I don't know.
~sciocont Overall Team Lead
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Subject: Re: Plant Gameplay Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:32 pm
Now you're getting it. If you're a monocot, you essentially have nothing to do. You can only grow upwards and your roots are generally fibrous and just grow outward.
tklarenb Learner
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Subject: Re: Plant Gameplay Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:21 am
~sciocont wrote:
Now you're getting it. If you're a monocot, you essentially have nothing to do. You can only grow upwards and your roots are generally fibrous and just grow outward.
Maybe one thing we could do to help remedy the limited gameplay with monocots is have outside factors that effect the plant be more extreme than with dicots. For example, have herbivores feed on it more often, or have it loose water more rapidly.
This is definitely not the full solution, but it's a start.
~sciocont Overall Team Lead
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Subject: Re: Plant Gameplay Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:57 pm
tklarenb wrote:
~sciocont wrote:
Now you're getting it. If you're a monocot, you essentially have nothing to do. You can only grow upwards and your roots are generally fibrous and just grow outward.
Maybe one thing we could do to help remedy the limited gameplay with monocots is have outside factors that effect the plant be more extreme than with dicots. For example, have herbivores feed on it more often, or have it loose water more rapidly.
This is definitely not the full solution, but it's a start.
For monocots, I'd imagine a strategic playing style would help. Instead of one blade of grass, you can be the entire prairie.
tklarenb Learner
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Subject: Re: Plant Gameplay Tue Jan 24, 2012 7:36 pm
~sciocont wrote:
tklarenb wrote:
~sciocont wrote:
Now you're getting it. If you're a monocot, you essentially have nothing to do. You can only grow upwards and your roots are generally fibrous and just grow outward.
Maybe one thing we could do to help remedy the limited gameplay with monocots is have outside factors that effect the plant be more extreme than with dicots. For example, have herbivores feed on it more often, or have it loose water more rapidly.
This is definitely not the full solution, but it's a start.
For monocots, I'd imagine a strategic playing style would help. Instead of one blade of grass, you can be the entire prairie.
Now THAT'S a good idea. However, we have to make sure it's not too different from monocots, otherwise it's like playing another kingdom. I'm guessing you didn't actually mean the entire prairie, but several plants at once would be good. It could even tie in with reproduction with pollinators, as players could try to get them from one plant to the next.
~sciocont Overall Team Lead
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Subject: Re: Plant Gameplay Tue Jan 24, 2012 9:31 pm
tklarenb wrote:
~sciocont wrote:
tklarenb wrote:
~sciocont wrote:
Now you're getting it. If you're a monocot, you essentially have nothing to do. You can only grow upwards and your roots are generally fibrous and just grow outward.
Maybe one thing we could do to help remedy the limited gameplay with monocots is have outside factors that effect the plant be more extreme than with dicots. For example, have herbivores feed on it more often, or have it loose water more rapidly.
This is definitely not the full solution, but it's a start.
For monocots, I'd imagine a strategic playing style would help. Instead of one blade of grass, you can be the entire prairie.
Now THAT'S a good idea. However, we have to make sure it's not too different from monocots, otherwise it's like playing another kingdom. I'm guessing you didn't actually mean the entire prairie, but several plants at once would be good. It could even tie in with reproduction with pollinators, as players could try to get them from one plant to the next.
That's a brilliant mechanic. Oh, and after a bit of research, I've found some other woody monocots. These would be palms, banannas, yucca, and dracenae, plus a few others.
tklarenb Learner
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Subject: Re: Plant Gameplay Mon Jan 30, 2012 12:13 pm
Going off the idea for multiple plants for monocots, maybe we could have multiple individuals for ALL plants, just having more individuals for monocots than dicots, and perhaps omitting multiple individuals once the species attains a certain size? Then the reproduction function could work for all small plants, not just monocots.
Then again, with dicots, that's a lot more of a challenge, since they're much more dynamic than monocots in how they can grow, giving the player a lot more variables they need to keep track of. So I'm not 100% sold on this idea. Thoughts?
~sciocont Overall Team Lead
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Subject: Re: Plant Gameplay Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:10 pm
tklarenb wrote:
Going off the idea for multiple plants for monocots, maybe we could have multiple individuals for ALL plants, just having more individuals for monocots than dicots, and perhaps omitting multiple individuals once the species attains a certain size? Then the reproduction function could work for all small plants, not just monocots.
Then again, with dicots, that's a lot more of a challenge, since they're much more dynamic than monocots in how they can grow, giving the player a lot more variables they need to keep track of. So I'm not 100% sold on this idea. Thoughts?
I think strategy mode is very applicable to plants, since plants repopulate every generation, it could basically be a TBS system.
tklarenb Learner
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Subject: Re: Plant Gameplay Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:18 am
One thing I thought of: how will we control how much the player can grow nodes? Here's my ideas. If the player has a surplus of resources, they can use them to develop a maristem and grow a node. As for a limit, I think we should have it so the plant is roughly symmetrical so it isn't lopsided (causing the plant to fall over), and whatever the node is growing off of must have a certain "strength", so you can't grow one long skinny branch straight up through the canopy so you can start branching out above your competition, since in real life that branch would probably topple over.
Okay, other than that, I think all the major parts of plant gameplay have been wrapped up. I realize it isn't complete and there's probably more we need to discuss, but I felt we needed a place where everything is put together in one concept, plus adding a little bit with scio's strategy idea. So here it is:
Spoiler:
Basic Plant Gameplay Concept:
The player will be in control of several plants at once, the number of which depending on what type of plant the player is, with monocots having a large amount while dicots would only have a few so they're roughly equal in parts. Time will be sped up compared to animals but will return to normal in the event of a disaster such as an herbivore feeding off a plant to allow the player to see what is happening.
The player will be competing with other plants for four resources- sunlight (or heat if they're thermosynthesizers), water, air, and soil nutrients. All nutrients except light will be moved around using a drag and drop system with icons. Water, light, and air will be combined to create glucose, which will then be distributed to the other parts of the plant just like the other resources. Leaves will take in sunlight and air, while roots will take in water and nutrients. Other parts such as flowers and poison pods won't take in resources, but will play other roles. Parts will be colored based on health and what resource, if any, they are taking in.
Players plants start as a seed, and are then grown using nodes. Players will have the opportunity to choose what type of part they want to add when playing as a dicot; as a monocot, choices are much more limited, but the player is in charge of more plants. Plant parts the player has available will be displayed in some sort of menu system where the player can drag and drop them onto an available node when it has a surplus of resources. Nodes will not be available in areas that will go too far out of the range of symmetry or are not able to be supported by underlying parts (my skinny branch reference). Once placed, a maristem will form and the part will start to grow. New parts and coverings such as thorns will become available once a player has evolved them.
Plant part health can be affected by several different factors- parasites and disease, herbivores, and too little or too much of a resource. If a part looses too much health, it dies, and any parts coming out of it will quickly follow, due to a cut off of resources. The plant is completely killed off if the base (connection of root and stem) dies.
At the end of each lifespan, a brief window of time will open when the player can reproduce. The player will then need to grow reproductive structures if they haven't already, and then use them to reproduce their plants with each other, the method of which will be determined on what type of plant they are (angiosperm, etc). Once the window of time is over, the old generation will die off, and the new one will be generated as seed distributed in the soil based off how well each plant reproduced. Other plants will also be changing positions and population on independent time frames based on the lifespan of their species, meaning the map will be constantly changing.
What do you guys think? Should we have the parent generation die off like I have, or should we have some other method?
~sciocont Overall Team Lead
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Subject: Re: Plant Gameplay Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:20 pm
Sorry to not read that in full, but just so you know, branches are scaled by hierarchy, so the further away from the main stem(s) they are, the smaller they are. So that takes care of that.
Mixotroph Newcomer
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Subject: Re: Plant Gameplay Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:52 pm
Here are my ideas for plant gameplay:
If you are a mixotroph/plant like animal/whatever you can choose weither you move or not.
Plant growth should be determined by the fertility of the soil too, not just sunlight, biome and atmosphere composition. If it is very poor soil you are growing on for example, you might not survive unless you are any of the following types: You are a carnivorous plant that can eat small insects and stuff to help supply nutrients. If you are a mixotroph you can eat anyone that goes near you. However if you are growing on very fertile soil you might get crowded out by other plants and die due to lack of sunlight.
Forest fires should pose a threat to you so you must evolve ways to resist them, such as being able to grow back after being damaged.
There are plants that move when touched, look up the sensitive plant.
tklarenb Learner
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Subject: Re: Plant Gameplay Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:37 am
@scio-Good thinking, I was thinking too hard, although I still think we should have some sort of restriction for growth that keeps the plant from growing too lopsided (not counting plants growing out of cliff sides)
Mixotroph wrote:
Here are my ideas for plant gameplay:
If you are a mixotroph/plant like animal/whatever you can choose weither you move or not.
Plant growth should be determined by the fertility of the soil too, not just sunlight, biome and atmosphere composition. If it is very poor soil you are growing on for example, you might not survive unless you are any of the following types: You are a carnivorous plant that can eat small insects and stuff to help supply nutrients. If you are a mixotroph you can eat anyone that goes near you. However if you are growing on very fertile soil you might get crowded out by other plants and die due to lack of sunlight.
Forest fires should pose a threat to you so you must evolve ways to resist them, such as being able to grow back after being damaged.
There are plants that move when touched, look up the sensitive plant.
If you read the full concept I just wrote three posts before yours, everything you just said has except for your last point has already been discussed. 1. This is plant gameplay only, they're not going to be moving 2. Soil fertility is already taken into account with nutrients 3. Parts such as venus-fly trap like jaws are covered within the extra parts. 4. Sunlight competition has already been discussed and will be implemented 5. We have already discussed threats that damage your plant 6. The carniverous plants we discussed earlier implement this, but we could also have plants that retract exposed leaves when touched as a defense against herbivores
Mixotroph Newcomer
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Subject: Re: Plant Gameplay Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:04 pm
tklarenb wrote:
@scio-Good thinking, I was thinking too hard, although I still think we should have some sort of restriction for growth that keeps the plant from growing too lopsided (not counting plants growing out of cliff sides)
Mixotroph wrote:
Here are my ideas for plant gameplay:
If you are a mixotroph/plant like animal/whatever you can choose weither you move or not.
Plant growth should be determined by the fertility of the soil too, not just sunlight, biome and atmosphere composition. If it is very poor soil you are growing on for example, you might not survive unless you are any of the following types: You are a carnivorous plant that can eat small insects and stuff to help supply nutrients. If you are a mixotroph you can eat anyone that goes near you. However if you are growing on very fertile soil you might get crowded out by other plants and die due to lack of sunlight.
Forest fires should pose a threat to you so you must evolve ways to resist them, such as being able to grow back after being damaged.
There are plants that move when touched, look up the sensitive plant.
If you read the full concept I just wrote three posts before yours, everything you just said has except for your last point has already been discussed. 1. This is plant gameplay only, they're not going to be moving 2. Soil fertility is already taken into account with nutrients 3. Parts such as venus-fly trap like jaws are covered within the extra parts. 4. Sunlight competition has already been discussed and will be implemented 5. We have already discussed threats that damage your plant 6. The carniverous plants we discussed earlier implement this, but we could also have plants that retract exposed leaves when touched as a defense against herbivores
I meant moving mixotrophs.
Also, theres a plant that moves when it "hears" sound. Look up the Telegraph Plant/Dancing Plant.
Have you discussed plants that can store large amounts of water like a Cactus?
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