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~sciocont
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PostSubject: Re: Biome List   Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:32 pm

Dudeman wrote:
It's always going to be an alien planet in this game. The plants can get enough nutrients from a different kind of liquid, whatever their planet's ocean is. Plus, dead animals from the sea or lake could be in the water. And bacteria, algae, even more plants.

It's plausible.


EDIT: I can't answer your liquid question, sorry.


I didn't know posts were deletable!
If the organisms are using nutrients only from the world around them, they would be heterotrophs. Plants are autotrophs, meaning they make their own food. What you are describing is better filled by a fungi or sessile filter-feeding animal.

UTeen, I'm not sure what you mean by the temperature question- there is no water ecosystem possible at 100°C unles it's under extremely high pressure. This would be a hydrothermal vent ecosystem and chemosynthesis is used by its inhabitants.

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PostSubject: Re: Biome List   Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:54 pm

~sciocont wrote:
Dudeman wrote:
It's always going to be an alien planet in this game. The plants can get enough nutrients from a different kind of liquid, whatever their planet's ocean is. Plus, dead animals from the sea or lake could be in the water. And bacteria, algae, even more plants.

It's plausible.


EDIT: I can't answer your liquid question, sorry.


I didn't know posts were deletable!
If the organisms are using nutrients only from the world around them, they would be heterotrophs. Plants are autotrophs, meaning they make their own food. What you are describing is better filled by a fungi or sessile filter-feeding animal.

UTeen, I'm not sure what you mean by the temperature question- there is no water ecosystem possible at 100°C unles it's under extremely high pressure. This would be a hydrothermal vent ecosystem and chemosynthesis is used by its inhabitants.

Oh yeah...

Oops.

I'm not the smartest person here...


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PostSubject: Re: Biome List   Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:50 am

The Uteen wrote:
What water equivalent for an ecosystem there could be which is liquid at temperatures of around 100℃+, but is solid at around 100℃-?
Like Scio said, high pressure would be the only possible way. I did a bit of research (read: Wikipedia searches) and it looks like Earth is about as hot as a planet can be without going into chemistry that we have no clue about. So it's going to have to be a really humid swamp. No ice-like materials.
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PostSubject: Re: Biome List   Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:33 pm

~sciocont wrote:

UTeen, I'm not sure what you mean by the temperature question- there is no water ecosystem possible at 100°C unles it's under extremely high pressure. This would be a hydrothermal vent ecosystem and chemosynthesis is used by its inhabitants.

No, no, no... And sorry, I wasn't very clear. And my question has changed in the meantime as my concept developes. This is definitely exactly what I need, something that fits the specifications of this list:

What I need is:

  • A high temperature water equivalent.
  • Like water, that plant equivalents which thermosynthesise can get their energy from.
  • It should solidify at a temperature above 100℃, preferably below 200℃, and nothing like 500℃ or above, that's waay too high.
  • It should pour, ideally like water.
  • Preferably not sticky.
  • Not water, because that is going to be in the ecosystem as well, as the cold sea. (Sneak preview )
  • Not too dense, it should soak up into porous rock and soil like water does. It is a water equivalent.


They are the requirements and preferabilities, if you find something that matches this description, then you are truly incredible.


I'm working on the concept, and it is based on an environment not like Earth's at all, so I am making a background and weather concept as well, but the main focus is on the specific area of the planet I am focusing on. And two species. It isn't a very welcoming environment. Above hot sea level, anyway.

And another request:

  • The verb of thermosynthesis, because thermosynthesise isn't a word. Thermosynthesis is a word, though, so surely it has a verb version.
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PostSubject: Re: Biome List   Tue Feb 22, 2011 6:59 pm

The Uteen wrote:
~sciocont wrote:

UTeen, I'm not sure what you mean by the temperature question- there is no water ecosystem possible at 100°C unles it's under extremely high pressure. This would be a hydrothermal vent ecosystem and chemosynthesis is used by its inhabitants.

No, no, no... And sorry, I wasn't very clear. And my question has changed in the meantime as my concept developes. This is definitely exactly what I need, something that fits the specifications of this list:

What I need is:

  • A high temperature water equivalent.
  • Like water, that plant equivalents which thermosynthesise can get their energy from.
  • It should solidify at a temperature above 100℃, preferably below 200℃, and nothing like 500℃ or above, that's waay too high.
  • It should pour, ideally like water.
  • Preferably not sticky.
  • Not water, because that is going to be in the ecosystem as well, as the cold sea. (Sneak preview )
  • Not too dense, it should soak up into porous rock and soil like water does. It is a water equivalent.


They are the requirements and preferabilities, if you find something that matches this description, then you are truly incredible.


I'm working on the concept, and it is based on an environment not like Earth's at all, so I am making a background and weather concept as well, but the main focus is on the specific area of the planet I am focusing on. And two species. It isn't a very welcoming environment. Above hot sea level, anyway.

And another request:

  • The verb of thermosynthesis, because thermosynthesise isn't a word. Thermosynthesis is a word, though, so surely it has a verb version.
It would be thermosynthesize -to create with heat
It sounds a bit out there- don't make this too complex. I'll look around for something with a freezing point above 100℃, but I might not find much that's favorable.

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PostSubject: Re: Biome List   Tue Feb 22, 2011 7:08 pm

So far, Ammonium nitrate seems the most promising- with a melting point at 170- however, it's an ionic compound, so it might not work very well. Also, it's a fertilizer, but quite useful as an oxidizing agent in explosives, so it's a bit volatile.
I'm assuming that you know higher temp=higher energy and everything progresses solid-liquid-gas from lowest energy to highest.
4-Nitrophenol looks great to me- not that much is knowna about it from what I can glean, but it isn't harmful to humans, although it does irritate the skin and cause headaches. It's not a carcinogen and has a melting point of 115.

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PostSubject: Re: Biome List   Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:36 pm

Can we stick to pseudo-terran chemistry for now? Please? We agreed on this a while ago. I don't see why we're concerning ourselves with this right now.
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PostSubject: Re: Biome List   Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:46 pm

Tenebrarum wrote:
Can we stick to pseudo-terran chemistry for now? Please? We agreed on this a while ago. I don't see why we're concerning ourselves with this right now.
Yeah, I'm most comfortable with that, but I'd like to give UTeen a little help and support before his idea gets completely vetoed, you know?

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PostSubject: Re: Biome List   Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:20 pm

Tenebrarum wrote:
Can we stick to pseudo-terran chemistry for now? Please? We agreed on this a while ago. I don't see why we're concerning ourselves with this right now.
Well I think this is more a way to broaden what temperatures life can exist. Maybe we could just tag what solvent is used for all organisms from any planet, and have very few that would work. Obviously we should be very strict with things so that you don't have creatures swimming in oceans of gallium, and maybe at first we should start with just water and then decide if we want to add other compounds and if so work out the different properties and interactions with other organisms.
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PostSubject: Re: Biome List   Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:38 am

~sciocont wrote:
So far, Ammonium nitrate seems the most promising- with a melting point at 170- however, it's an ionic compound, so it might not work very well. Also, it's a fertilizer, but quite useful as an oxidizing agent in explosives, so it's a bit volatile.
I'm assuming that you know higher temp=higher energy and everything progresses solid-liquid-gas from lowest energy to highest.
4-Nitrophenol looks great to me- not that much is knowna about it from what I can glean, but it isn't harmful to humans, although it does irritate the skin and cause headaches. It's not a carcinogen and has a melting point of 115.

I've gone with Nitrophenol, the melting point is great, but I'm not sure on the exact way it works, so I've not changed anything in that area. Amazing!!!

The concept does seem to have become quite unearthlike. I've made a biome for this thread, if it's okay to post it this early. But I've also made a bit (tons) of background information, should that go in the concept race thread? Give the word, and I'll post it up.

And yes, it's unlikely, and silicon, but it was fun seeing what sort of life I'd invent on a planet that was supposed to resemble Earth but is nothing like it!
It would probably look cool as concept art, but I can't draw, so it's up to you.
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PostSubject: Re: Biome List   Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:52 pm

The Uteen wrote:
~sciocont wrote:
So far, Ammonium nitrate seems the most promising- with a melting point at 170- however, it's an ionic compound, so it might not work very well. Also, it's a fertilizer, but quite useful as an oxidizing agent in explosives, so it's a bit volatile.
I'm assuming that you know higher temp=higher energy and everything progresses solid-liquid-gas from lowest energy to highest.
4-Nitrophenol looks great to me- not that much is knowna about it from what I can glean, but it isn't harmful to humans, although it does irritate the skin and cause headaches. It's not a carcinogen and has a melting point of 115.

I've gone with Nitrophenol, the melting point is great, but I'm not sure on the exact way it works, so I've not changed anything in that area. Amazing!!!

The concept does seem to have become quite unearthlike. I've made a biome for this thread, if it's okay to post it this early. But I've also made a bit (tons) of background information, should that go in the concept race thread? Give the word, and I'll post it up.

And yes, it's unlikely, and silicon, but it was fun seeing what sort of life I'd invent on a planet that was supposed to resemble Earth but is nothing like it!
It would probably look cool as concept art, but I can't draw, so it's up to you.
The problem is that organisms won't be able to use notrophenol for the same things they use water for. Water is a very unique molecule and many of its properties are very beneficial for life. That's not to say life couldn't evolve to live in a nitrophenol sea though.

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PostSubject: Re: Biome List   Wed Feb 23, 2011 8:06 pm

~sciocont wrote:
The problem is that organisms won't be able to use notrophenol for the same things they use water for. Water is a very unique molecule and many of its properties are very beneficial for life. That's not to say life couldn't evolve to live in a nitrophenol sea though.
What about a mixture of compounds that would not react too much with eachother yet could together perform all of the functions of water?
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PostSubject: Re: Biome List   Wed Feb 23, 2011 10:16 pm

Poisson wrote:
~sciocont wrote:
The problem is that organisms won't be able to use notrophenol for the same things they use water for. Water is a very unique molecule and many of its properties are very beneficial for life. That's not to say life couldn't evolve to live in a nitrophenol sea though.
What about a mixture of compounds that would not react too much with eachother yet could together perform all of the functions of water?
There isn't one.

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PostSubject: Re: Biome List   Thu Feb 24, 2011 10:53 am

~sciocont wrote:
Poisson wrote:
~sciocont wrote:
The problem is that organisms won't be able to use notrophenol for the same things they use water for. Water is a very unique molecule and many of its properties are very beneficial for life. That's not to say life couldn't evolve to live in a nitrophenol sea though.
What about a mixture of compounds that would not react too much with eachother yet could together perform all of the functions of water?
There isn't one.

...So it wouldn't work? That's disappointing...

Can I at least add it to concept race? I'm sure some parts of it would be good for ideas.
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PostSubject: Re: Biome List   Thu Feb 24, 2011 7:35 pm

LAWK requires water. Mostly because water has unique polarities that make it a solvent for most things, and has high surface tension, without which it would really suck to be a cell.
As far as chemistry goes, I could have sworn that someone was promising a couple months ago to find a list of what temperatures different compounds and elements were in what state at so that we could reference it for our more exotic planets.
Just because we aren't sure whether we can grow life in liquid methane doesn't mean that we should disregard it entirely.

And back OT:
Kelp Forest
occurs: Under the sea, close to shore
resources: cold, nutrient rich water, sunlight
elevation: 20 - 80 feet below sea level (6-25 m)
climate: 50 - 60 F water, (10 - 18 C)
topography: more level than not
biodiversity: We still need to agree to a real way to measure this, but it has at least 3 tertiary consumers, though some just pass through.
autotroph niches: all up to large. It's hard to tell because kelp grows until it reaches the ocean surface, then starts expandiing outwards
heterotroph niches: Carnivores up to midlarge, herbivores up to about midsize, though it's potentially possible to have midlarge ones
other: has sublevels depending on sun: canopy, midlevel and floor. Also, pretty darn hard to disturb, because most storms just make kelp bend or break off pieces, and it can re-anchor itself.
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PostSubject: Re: Biome List   Thu Feb 24, 2011 7:59 pm

I'm assuming that we're officially using Kelvin as our temperatures. Anyone know of a good translation site?
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PostSubject: Re: Biome List   Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:10 pm

Kelvin's easy. It's Celsius plus 273.
Link here for the mathematically challenged:Celsius to Kelvin, and, more importantly, Farenheit to Celsius.

Edited for linkfail.
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PostSubject: Re: Biome List   Wed Mar 16, 2011 4:11 am

So over on the "Colony-Org" thread we have been discussing whether bimoes would apply at this stage.
Heres an example:


Spoiler:
 


Thoughts?

There will be a few of these biomes which a player can begin in as a cell and even remain or revisit later when they are larger.
If a player starts in a random biome, then that could be a factor of the chosen template organism too when they become full 3D (discussed here)

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PostSubject: Re: Biome List   Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:24 pm

I like that. Other beginner biomes could be things like hot springs, etc?

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PostSubject: Re: Biome List   Thu Mar 24, 2011 3:19 am

Not sure if this is what you're looking for, but here's one of mine (inspired by Life on Snaiad). It's more about a specific type of organism, but it's like grass is for grassland. Oh well, i'll just post it and hope it passes.

Biome: Sponge Forest
Occurs: On the coast and other areas with high humidity.
Resources Needed: Many dead organisms.
Climate: Hot and humid.
Required Topography: Any
Biodiversity: High, but mostly in heterotrophs (they're animals, right?)
Autotroph Niches: All up to medium. Fast expanding, fungus-like organisms are abundant, and cover all other non-moving organisms looking for sunlight or warmth to use for energy conversion. Because of this dominance, other autotrophs are rare.
Heterotroph Niches: Up to medium, but grounded heterotrophs have to have defenses against the aggressive sponges. Most common heterotrophs are aerial and tiny.
Other: Sponge forest requires an aggressive producer organism with high reproduction rates to be present.

So was that okay? Sorry, i haven't been too involved in this thread.
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PostSubject: Re: Biome List   Thu Mar 24, 2011 4:01 am

I think i will have ago at making a biome text editor with visual C++, with drop down menus and a buttonto convvert to a txt. file.
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PostSubject: Re: Biome List   Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:13 pm

US_of_Alaska wrote:
Not sure if this is what you're looking for, but here's one of mine (inspired by Life on Snaiad). It's more about a specific type of organism, but it's like grass is for grassland. Oh well, i'll just post it and hope it passes.

Biome: Sponge Forest
Occurs: On the coast and other areas with high humidity.
Resources Needed: Many dead organisms.
Climate: Hot and humid.
Required Topography: Any
Biodiversity: High, but mostly in heterotrophs (they're animals, right?)
Autotroph Niches: All up to medium. Fast expanding, fungus-like organisms are abundant, and cover all other non-moving organisms looking for sunlight or warmth to use for energy conversion. Because of this dominance, other autotrophs are rare.
Heterotroph Niches: Up to medium, but grounded heterotrophs have to have defenses against the aggressive sponges. Most common heterotrophs are aerial and tiny.
Other: Sponge forest requires an aggressive producer organism with high reproduction rates to be present.

So was that okay? Sorry, i haven't been too involved in this thread.
Pretty good. yes, animals and fungi are heterotrophs.

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PostSubject: Re: Biome List   Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:59 pm

Yep Hot springs would be a good one! We should have certain biomes tagged as having a microscopic niche right? Technically most biomes should have one but they wouldn't really be necessary (I.E we don't have to code bacteria to break down larger organisms, decomposing corpses could just happen anyway. Or maybe only IF bacteria are present. (IE in very harsh areas, say arctic tundras, copses could mummify like the mummified seal near the south pole because there are no bacteria to break it down.)

http://web.pdx.edu/~virginia/images/mummifiedseal2.jpg
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PostSubject: Re: Biome List   Thu Mar 24, 2011 6:12 pm

Question, would it be possible for the player to change a biome from one type to another?

For example, cutting a forest down into grassland, or orbital bombardment to reduce deserts to fields of glass.
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PostSubject: Re: Biome List   Thu Mar 24, 2011 6:29 pm

caekdaemon wrote:
Question, would it be possible for the player to change a biome from one type to another?

For example, cutting a forest down into grassland, or orbital bombardment to reduce deserts to fields of glass.
Yep, that should be possible. Good point.

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