Evolution of Intelligence

I just thought of something that I haven't really seen much here or on the wiki. How will intelligence evolve? And along with this, how will sapience be determined? I know we only have one example of sapience to go off of (us), but I think this is a major point that needs to be discussed. I'm not talking about what actions a creature has available based on intelligence, but the manner the intelligence comes about in the first place. Based off the concept of the organism phase, we don't want it linear like Spore where you always end up at sapience. How else can we do this, and what creates and determines intelligence?

I'm no expert on brain evolution, but I think this may have to do with adaptability. A species that is more adaptable would have to know more about its world, and as a result be more intelligent. This ties in with humans, as we are extremely adaptable, the most adaptable species on Earth. I don't know how we could implement this into the game, but that's my idea.

High intelligence has evolved separately multiple times here on earth, and there are probably multiple cases of it that we don't know about, due to the difficulty of determining intelligence from fossils. High intelligence has evolved in:
Primates
Octopi
Corvids
Psittaciformes
Maniraptorans (most likely)
Cetaceans

In primates, cetaceans, psittaciformes and maniraptorans, this intelligence exists because of important social interactions within a group of the animals. In octupi, intelligence evolved as a way to solve problems during a solitary life. In Corvids, it seems to have evolved simply due to its use in finding and exploiting food sources.

~sciocont wrote:

High intelligence has evolved separately multiple times here on earth, and there are probably multiple cases of it that we don't know about, due to the difficulty of determining intelligence from fossils. High intelligence has evolved in:
Primates
Octopi
Corvids
Psittaciformes
Maniraptorans (most likely)
Cetaceans

In primates, cetaceans, psittaciformes and maniraptorans, this intelligence exists because of important social interactions within a group of the animals. In octupi, intelligence evolved as a way to solve problems during a solitary life. In Corvids, it seems to have evolved simply due to its use in finding and exploiting food sources.

That kind of goes with my theory on adaptability. All the examples you gave are creatures that are highly adaptable, but yes, I think social interaction has to do a part with it too.

Really, this shows two forms of intelligence: social and solitary. It seems that social intelligence is more likely to evolve, but with this small set, who knows. Either way, we know that living in small groups contributes to intelligence, whereas living in herds does not.

I found this wikipedia article on human intelligence has quite a few theories we could use (most of them centering around your social group theory)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_human_intelligence

Now that we have a basis for what determines intelligence, is there a way we can implement this into the game? Here's my idea:
We have a sort of intelligence bar that's either visible to the player or just runs in the background that fills based off of what traits your creature has that are unique to intelligent creatures, such as complex communication, a large, complex brain, small social groups, etc. This way, solitary animals and herd animals would still have a chance to become sapient, just not as large of a chance as small social group animals since they're missing the "small social" trait. Maybe this bar could also unlock certain actions the player can do, such as tool usage, which could in turn increase the bar even more if used (they would not be required, giving the player the choice of where they go). Thoughts?

tklarenb wrote:

I found this wikipedia article on human intelligence has quite a few theories we could use (most of them centering around your social group theory)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_human_intelligence

Now that we have a basis for what determines intelligence, is there a way we can implement this into the game? Here's my idea:
We have a sort of intelligence bar that's either visible to the player or just runs in the background that fills based off of what traits your creature has that are unique to intelligent creatures, such as complex communication, a large, complex brain, small social groups, etc. This way, solitary animals and herd animals would still have a chance to become sapient, just not as large of a chance as small social group animals since they're missing the "small social" trait. Maybe this bar could also unlock certain actions the player can do, such as tool usage, which could in turn increase the bar even more if used (they would not be required, giving the player the choice of where they go). Thoughts?

We can in no way limit player intelligence, because the player is smarter than anything in the game. we can use this for NPC intelligence, but as for the player's species, we can do the same thing we do for other NPCs, which is tweak the nervous system and behavior until the right mix of traits makes evolution probable to evolve.

Tool usage is dependent on physiology, since animals need some appendage, whether it be tentacle, mouth, hand, etc, to pick up and use the tool. Therefore, we can, bty limiting the dexterity of the player's creature's graspers, prevent them from using tools until their appendages are better suited.

~sciocont wrote:

tklarenb wrote:

I found this wikipedia article on human intelligence has quite a few theories we could use (most of them centering around your social group theory)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_human_intelligence

Now that we have a basis for what determines intelligence, is there a way we can implement this into the game? Here's my idea:
We have a sort of intelligence bar that's either visible to the player or just runs in the background that fills based off of what traits your creature has that are unique to intelligent creatures, such as complex communication, a large, complex brain, small social groups, etc. This way, solitary animals and herd animals would still have a chance to become sapient, just not as large of a chance as small social group animals since they're missing the "small social" trait. Maybe this bar could also unlock certain actions the player can do, such as tool usage, which could in turn increase the bar even more if used (they would not be required, giving the player the choice of where they go). Thoughts?

We can in no way limit player intelligence, because the player is smarter than anything in the game. we can use this for NPC intelligence, but as for the player's species, we can do the same thing we do for other NPCs, which is tweak the nervous system and behavior until the right mix of traits makes evolution probable to evolve.

Tool usage is dependent on physiology, since animals need some appendage, whether it be tentacle, mouth, hand, etc, to pick up and use the tool. Therefore, we can, bty limiting the dexterity of the player's creature's graspers, prevent them from using tools until their appendages are better suited.

Yeah, when I wrote this I was thinking more towards NPC evolution. But how will we determine when the player is sapient then? Is that already written somewhere where I missed it?

Check here.

~sciocont wrote:

High intelligence has evolved separately multiple times here on earth, and there are probably multiple cases of it that we don't know about, due to the difficulty of determining intelligence from fossils. High intelligence has evolved in:
Primates
Octopi
Corvids
Psittaciformes
Maniraptorans (most likely)
Cetaceans

In primates, cetaceans, psittaciformes and maniraptorans, this intelligence exists because of important social interactions within a group of the animals. In octupi, intelligence evolved as a way to solve problems during a solitary life. In Corvids, it seems to have evolved simply due to its use in finding and exploiting food sources.

High Intelligence is also present within Cats and Dogs

Yes, but not exceptionally high.

So, hi all. I would just like clarify something.
So, in Walking with Cavemen, the early humans (can't remember exact species) had what could be described as basic intelligence in a scene where they ran from a lion, then the alpha male realized their numbers would allow them to overwhelm the lion and scare it from their food. They also picked up rocks to throw at the lion. A later species of human (I'll call it a type of human for lack of knowledge of a better term) was able to use rocks to sharpen flint into hand haxes-

This could be described as a very high level of intelligence. This same species also had the first (I think) chest configuration that gave them the first ever basic language. The also seem to have strange interest in nick-knacks such as a crocodilian tooth that the alpha would play around with similar to if one were to play around with a pencil while at their desk.
Now, the thing is that they were intelligent, and just that. They used the same tools to kill a beast that the leader told them to encircle. They couldn't wonder about a flower waving in a light breeze, admire the clouds as they pass overhead, and feel thankful for the inevitable shade. They were just smart. The show states that fossil records stay unchanged for an incredibly long time, a mark of evolutionary stagnation. They used the same hand axes for several thousand years, making them as a bird would make a nest (comparison plucked from the show). The show used an event such as lightning striking some brambles to ignite fire as sort of an external trigger to make the creature contemplate. Not on anything specific, just allow philosophical thought. In the final episode, in the last part, the show was going over the difficulties of the European species to adapt to the changing weather. It describes the neanderthal as becoming evolutionary complacent, a deadly curse. Because they were so used to Ice Age life, they were ill suited for a changing world. The show then goes to the African branch of the early humans. It showed them burying an ostrich egg with water in it, stating that this was a level of intelligence that was a sign of sapience, because they were planning ahead, anticipating the future need of water if they were to pass through the area. This can be interpreted as different from an animal storing food, because they just store food because they adapted to, not because the never did it before and just felt the need to store a portion of a kill in anticipation of a lack of prey.
Now to the implications of ideas used in the giant wall of text (apologies). I don't know myself how sapience would be caused/triggered/achieved, and I'm not saying it should be done by means of an external source. I'm just saying evolving to an intelligent level is different from sapience.
When one reaches intelligence, basic tools such as sticks, hand axes, and rocks should be available for the player to use in the "creature" faze. There should also be a kind of climate change system (looked up "climate change" in the search bar, got the climate math codes) to add a level of challenge that interrupts the player's evolutionary plan, forcing them to evolve according to the change (just a suggestion, this might over complicate things for actual development), but this is an idea for another thread, and I can't exactly make threads right now. So, what do you think? Oh ya, the thing I was confused about was if there would be a difference between the two.

Good science. To summarise, tool use and planning ahead are separate evolutionary steps.

What do you suppose this means in terms of gameplay? Organisms intelligently planning ahead (i.e. doing it beyond the Behaviours system) is not really something realistically programmable*, and doesn't really add to gameplay, either - our current plan is to simplify organisms post-sentience, and focus on the bigger picture.
So the alternative we fall back on is toolmaking as the trigger for sapience in-game, and then we're back where we started.

*In Thrive, for something to be realistically programmable, also means Roadkillguy can do it if given enough tasty treats, at least until we find more programmers.


As for climate change, my best guess is that climate (planet temperature) change will be a randomly occurring natural disaster, but you'd have to ask those more knowledgable in that area, or search for an existing topic.

I didn't really mean to put an planning ahead element in. I was just using it as an example of sapience. I guess sapience would mark the beginning of the tech tree/web/other. Things like flint spears, fire, and early shelters become available.

Speaking about tech trees, with their be varying types of trees? For example, a society formed in a forest would try to use wood for weapons and try to do more with what they have, vs a society using metal would try to do more with copper and such

That would make sense. If a species didn't have access to sustainable amounts of wood, their most basic tools wood be from bone, then more complex from there.

Nice posts to all.
Planning ahead is an essential part of intelligence, but it's not indicative of it. Much "planning" is innate behavior, like that of bears and squirrels fattening up and storing food for the winter. This we can't call sapient intelligence.
However, what underlies true planning is true intelligence. This is the recognization of patterns and ability to use abstract thought. This is exhibited to some degree in many species of birds. Hit up the wikipedia page on avian intelligence and you'll see tons of examples of behaviors that would seem to use real intelligence.
The obvious way to evolve intelligence is modification of the brain, so, to evolve it ingame, you'll need a sufficiently large brain to body size ratio, a brain with a high surface area, and modifications to the brain that allow the species in question to recognize patterns and use abstract ideas.

So, now what, Sciocont?

We save this for later. Right now we need to focus on Cell Stage and early multicellular stage.