Crash Course Economics

I updated the list.

I'm not sure about the containers, maybe we should differentate them because, for example, a basket can't hold liquids because they would spill. I am going to differentate them. Tell me what you think about it.

I will rename things as you said.

Refrigirator not very useful? I would rename it to freezer, but other than that looks fine. When the refrigirator appeared in the XIX century, it was a revolutionary device. Food was no longer a subject of spoiling, so ships could have traveled longer distances, most food industries received a production boom etc.

Liquid extractor I will rename to pump.
Offices would be placed into factories to improve production efficency and could create a brand new office building that would give income.

Great!

Whenever I say not useful, I do not deny their purpose in reality, rather, I am referring as to whether that same or a similar purpose can be served by it in game. Since by the Strategy Mode, I dont think we will be calculating when food goes bad, Refrigerators/Freezers dont have much use.

However, I could see a way around this. We could make Refrigerators increase the yield of compounds from the building tagged as "Food".

Differentiating sounds good. I guess we could place restrictions as to what container allows the carrying of what compounds.

Oh, I see. Pumps would be useful.

I got an idea for Offices, something I thought of overnight and is similar to your idea. Each Office FP increases the yield of a Factory. If a player builds a building with Offices separate from a factory, then whenever he places that building he must designate which factory thr office is related to. Each factory can only have one Office building related to it.

Actually we can simulate food going bad, and we should. We alredy have discussed stockpiles, which have a retention rate (or something like that). That aplies to anything that can deteriorate. Refrigerators (when used) will reduce that loss dramatically. We can also make so that people prefer to consume food that is close to perish, in order to make the food last longer.

The best way (most realistic) to do that would be to keep track of every food item that comes in, and destroy it when enough time has passed if noone ate it. This might be too much for computers, and to make it good we might have to introduce every kind of food (each one has diferent decaying time). Refrigerators would increase the time it takes for the food to go bad.

The easiest way would be to simulate food as if it were radioactive material, decaying the same way. Each cycle, some percentage of it goes bad. For example, if the stockpile is currently at 100, decaying rate is at 10% and there is no consumption, then it would look like this: 100>90>91>73>66>59>48>43>29>35>31>28>25>23. Refrigerators would reduce that percentage when used. Consumption would be taken from the things that are going to decay first, so only the biggest from consumption and decay would take effect (if you eat it faster than it decays, you won't notice anything, but if you try to store too much, food will start to perish). This is not a very accurate simulation, but it is extremely easy to do for the computer.

I think that lighting can be implemented as well. Without lighting, nothing can work at night. Candles require wax (if you dont have something similar to bees you cannot use them), and electrical lighting require energy.

Okay, so let me first start of with a question.

Should I maybe make a separate thread for discussing the different uses of the various FP's? Since this thread is called "crash course economics" I assume we are only temporarily discussing FP's and that the time will come when we would have to move on to different things. If I made a thread about the uses of the FP's, I think we would be more efficient. Keep in mind that the thread won't be used for adding new FP's, but discussing the actual use of the current ones.

That being said, I want you guys to tell me what you think about it.

Back on topic. Yes, simulating food decay would be difficult, but I have an idea about it.

First of all, let's start of with the case that food doesn't decay. Food wouldn't decay in an area while the food income of that province is lesser than or equal to the loss of food in that province. Let's say Fi is food income and Fl is food loss and D is food decay . First, the computer would scan Fi and Fl and compare them. If Fi<=Fl than D=0 and there is no food decay. However, if Fl<Fi than D would get a value larger than 0. More precisely, here are the factors that would effect D:
1. D will initially start of as (Ft(total food)-Fl)*100/Ft (if Fl<Fi)
2. If the climate is very arid or arid, nothing would be added due to the climate. If it is temperate than D=D+1 and if it is humid or very humid than D=D+2 or D=D+3
3. If there is a lack of storage space in the SC than D=Fe (Excess food)*100/Ft (total food) or something like that, I'm not sure.

This way, Fl=Fl+D.

Tell me if you like the idea

A new thread on the purposes of FP's would be good. That's something I have taken many notes on but never really discussed on the forums.

I like your idea about food decay, and it reminisces of a Paradox Game calculation (income of that province is lesser...). However, I prefer Dani's method. I like the idea of the 10% decay when stockpiled. It builds upon the stockpile concept, and as well it allows for a new variable to be added to the properties of compounds, decay rate.

However, I think candles are too small and do not provide significant enough light to be included as an FP. I think torches and braziers, followed by lighting and neon lights sounds good.

Danifferto's decay concept is good, as the player would never get a larger decay rate than the actual amount of food a province, unlike in my concept that would need some polishing. However, I think that the decay rate wouldn't always have to be a straightforward 10% since there would always be different things affecting decay. Take this as an example. If I had a city in a tundra, with proper storage for goods, a very well developed infrastructure, and a city in a jungle, where there wasn't enough storage for all the food produced and the infrastructure next to nothing, I'm sure decay in the latter would be much larger.
So, allow me to demonstrate what I think we should do about this:
The default decay variable is 10. Here's the list of things that would increase and decrease decay rate:
Green- Things that decrease decay
Red- Things that increase decay
If the province owner has discovered refrigiration, than D=D-5;
If the province has access to salt, than D=D-2
If the province has a good administration, than D=D- up to 2
If the province is in a cold biome, than D=D-3
If the province is in a temperate biome, humid or very humid biome, than D=D+1,D=D+3 or D=D+5
If the province doesn't have enough storage, than D=D+ up to 8

Also, since I'm not allowed to make new threads in this section, I can't create the FP thread. Can you make it for me, I mean, just create a thread called "Function Part Uses" or something like that and let me make organise it and everything. Or you can organise it , it's entirely up to you.

Of course, 10% was just an example. And i alredy said that diferent conditions would modify the decay. However, i dont really like your way of handling decay. Here is how i would do it:

Depending on the environement, decay would vary. The hotter the climate, the bigger the decay, geting to be extremely unsuistainable at high temperatures (80% decay), and low decay at low temperatures. The actual numbers have to be discussed once the actual system is on place, as they depend on how fast the cycles take place.

Having the food on a refrigerator would override environement, simulating decay as if food was on a very cold climate.

Good administration and some researches modify decay multiplicatedly (probably spelled wrong). What i mean, for example, is that a good administration reduces decay to half, and bad administration doubles decay. This multipliers affect the decay from the environement.

I dont really know how salt would affect.

Tarpy, just to clarify, the map is not divided into provinces. The player has a country, and that country is comprised of SC's. Modifiers would thus be applied nationwide or to the SC. Decay Rate I think should also depend on the compound, and some compounds could thus not decay.

See, its not that refrigeration is a Research that is unlocked that then adds a modifier to "provinces", or in our case the nation or SC's, of the player. Rather, it is an FP that is or is not placed in the building. If the player has researched the Research that enables the Refrigerator FP, that does not mean that all storage buildings automatically get that modifier. Only buildings with a Refrigerator FP get a reduced Decay Rate, based on the number of Refrigerators the player places.

Administration has been removed as a value, by the way. It was an arbitrary value for something that will actually be simulated.

You guys are going to have to specify the relationship between the biomes and the decay rates. I would think this isn't really all that necessary to include, anyways.

A province doesn't store compounds. Buildings store them. If the building doesn't have enough storage, that compound wouldn't even be stored there in the first place, so that last modifier is not applicable.

I think all you need is 20 posts to make a new thread. With two more posts here you should be up to par. However, if you want, I could do it.

Well, I know that the map won't be divided into provinces. I just called the SC's provinces for... I don't know why actually.

So, I know that my suggestion in my last post needed some polishing, as it was just an example. Danifferto, we can go with your decay concept, but there is a hole in it. The problem is, temperature isn't the most important factor for decay. The most important factor for decay is the humidity in the area. Now, humidity is somewhat affected by the temperature, but still, deserts have a high temperature and are extremely arid while jungles also have a high temperature and are extremely humid. Sure, we can take the temperature of the area in which the SC is in into account, but we have to take humidity as well. Also, salt would actually effect the decay quite a lot. Before fridges were discovered, salt was used to prevent meat rot.

Also, I didn't know I need two more posts (now 1) to be able to create new threads. You don't have to make the thread for me, I'll just wait for another post and than create it.

(sorry for double post)

Here is the link for the FP discussion

So I read that this is where I go to suggest new FPs.

Lots of good ones already here, I'll have to think a while, but I might be able to cook up a few useful odds n' ends for you lads.

Aiosian_Doctor_Xenox wrote:

So I read that this is where I go to suggest new FPs.

For the moment yes, while we finish the purposes for the FP's on the other list. Just bear in mind that most of them are already covered, and anything past what we have is usually not there because it is too insignificant or specific.

Well then, I guess I'll have to think real hard on it.

...

And find the exact definition of what a function part is. I'm guessing at the moment, it's just an object that is used to have a particular effect on the player's environment, from what I've gathered.

Function Parts are defined here and here. They are the basic building blocks of anything you make in the Tech Editor.

Ah, I see. So it's as I first figured. Alright, sounds like I might have a few.

For one, I don't see a pickaxe, or much used for mining purposes, like TNT.

Also, hologram projectors(For communication purposes/civilian morale boost), FTL drive(if you guys will allow such a thing for ships), Shield generator(Probably don't need to explain this), bellows, machetes/knives(Clearing away vegetation before major machines for defoliation are developed), cutlery and eating ware(Possibly used in tribal and medieval as a prerequisite to banquets or something like they were used in the Stronghold franchise.) may be a few things too.

Pickaxes are definitely a must, and I'm surprised they are not on the list, since I thought they were. Holograms are good too. FTL drives will be split among several different variants, but all of those will be added. Shields are there already, and if they aren't they will be added. Bellows are implied as a part of Smithies. I think blades and axes already fulfil the role of machetes and knives, especially since those two are just names for different types of blades.

Cutlery and eating ware was mentioned before, but that is a level of detail that is too much for us.

Well, you don't have to physically add the cutlery, you could just have it as a resource that is mentioned in the early forms of society, then vanishes once more modern civilization appears. Just have like a potter's hut or something, and then you choose what they produce. All you'd need is a sprite of a plate with a fork, a spoon, and a knife next to it, with a + (number here) that floats off of it or something to give representation that it exists, while never actually having to show the objects themselves. Easy shortcut for not having to model out every little thing. (Sprite + #) Or if the potter's hut is made, you can cut the sprite entirely and instead just have a statistics list with the wares the potter currently has produced. If I'm good at anything, it's thinking up shortcuts. .3.

Anyway, some more FPs:

- Digital screen

- Robot components(You only have the A.I. Core listed)

- Oil refinery(Don't think I saw this...)

- Solar Cell

- Magnetic propulsion engine(like mag-lev trains)

- Various explosives(Very effective for removing unwanted structures, rocks, digging mines, etc.)

- Cannons(Ship-board/mounted/wheeled)

- Fuses(Didn't see these, can't have a cannon without a fuse)

- Chains

- Portcullis

- Kerosene

I've got a few more, but I'll leave it at this for now. (Fixed my last images in the concept art thread, BTW)

I just readed through the full list of FP, and half of them are too specific. We will just assume they are present and forget about them. Some of the latter ones are discussed alredy, like the multiple wires.

Ok, on doctor's sugestions:

Digital screen: that will be assumed present in the places it goes, as a clock

Robot components: what is this?

Refinery: Yes

Solar cell: Yes

Engines: i actually didnt see any engine.

Explosives: We only need one type. Bombs are just explosives.

Fuse: That will be assumed in the cannon/explosive

Chain: alredy covered by chain

Portcullis: never heard of this word

Kerosene: That could be a compound, not a FP

I added the "robot components" since if you just have an A.I. core for a robot, you need the robot's other bits too, or it won't really be that much use except for intelligent conversation for lonely people. .3.

Wikipedia's description of portcullis;

Spoiler:

Well, yes, you need more things other than a computer (whoever came up with the name of AI/personality core just played portal) But that other parts are just motors (presumably electric) and structure. Probably a source of energy as well.

My point is that "robotic components" doesent mean anything. It is just a vage description, that serves no purpouse to us.

Alright then, here's a few components that you 'bots will probably be more useful with than without;

- Hydraulic pumps

- A.I. Vocabulator

- Servo motors

- Specialized manipulators(for robots)

- Programming language(I'm surprised I didn't find this tech in the same list as the robot core. Though I think it would be more useful as a research title, not sure though.)

- Audio recording equipment(Can make stuff to boost civilian morale, or give your robots hearing capabilities)

- Video recording equipment(Same as above part, except gives the 'bots visual capabilities I mean, what point is there to a film projector if there's no recording things to make the films?)

- Pressure sensors(Robots can have touch sensitive parts for deciding force needed to lift objects, or useful in roads for monitoring cargo transport, or making sure there isn't too much weight going over your bridges)

Daniferrito wrote:

Well, yes, you need more things other than a computer (whoever came up with the name of AI/personality core just played portal)

The funny thing is, I never actually played portal. But I do agree that we need an energy storage, but isn't there already an energy storage part? I thought I put it in the list, I must have forgot to do that, apologies.

Xenox, here's what I think about the suggested FP's:

Hydraulic pumps- Good
A.I. Vocabulator- Don't really get a use for this
Servo motors- Sorry for sounding stupid, but what exactly is that?
Specialized manipulators- Good
Programming language- Don't see a use
Audio recording equipment- I guess these can make robots be able to react to sound in the environment, so I guess it's good
Video recording equipment- Makes the robot be able to actually see the environment around him, am I right?
Pressure sensors- Not really sure about this

Most of these are good. Nick and Daniferrito, need your opinions. If you agree, I will place these on the FP list.

Tarpy wrote:

Daniferrito wrote:

Well, yes, you need more things other than a computer (whoever came up with the name of AI/personality core just played portal)

The funny thing is, I never actually played portal. But I do agree that we need an energy storage, but isn't there already an energy storage part? I thought I put it in the list, I must have forgot to do that, apologies.

Xenox, here's what I think about the suggested FP's:

Hydraulic pumps- Good
A.I. Vocabulator- Don't really get a use for this
Servo motors- Sorry for sounding stupid, but what exactly is that?
Specialized manipulators- Good
Programming language- Don't see a use
Audio recording equipment- I guess these can make robots be able to react to sound in the environment, so I guess it's good
Video recording equipment- Makes the robot be able to actually see the environment around him, am I right?
Pressure sensors- Not really sure about this

Most of these are good. Nick and Daniferrito, need your opinions. If you agree, I will place these on the FP list.

Okay, so, The vocabulator would allow a robot to be able to vocally interact with your critters. I mean, what use would an android with a similar purpose to Data(from Star trek) be if it couldn't speak?

For servos;

Spoiler:

Basically gives then motorized joints, I mean, what good is an arm that has no joints? Not much at all. you can joust with it maybe, but not sure if you'd really need that unless you're on a very long space flight, are good with robots, and mind-numbingly bored. .3.

Anyway, Programming Language, I'm starting to think should be a research item now, but, reason I thought of it; How do you have a fully functional robot if you didn't program it? "Welcome, to the twilight zone."

Video record; Yes, and also makes the film projector a bit more use now that it has something to project. .3.

Have you ever seen those truck stop things off of the roads where they weigh them? Yeah, I was thinking they could be used like that. Could also notify a robot if a psychotic space-monkey just landed very gently on it's back and is about to rip its eyes out. .3. Can't have them monkeys ruining your warehouse security, now can you? Them Space-monkeys could end up costing you millions...

Aiosian_Doctor_Xenox wrote:

Have you ever seen those truck stop things off of the roads where they weigh them? Yeah, I was thinking they could be used like that. Could also notify a robot if a psychotic space-monkey just landed very gently on it's back and is about to rip its eyes out. .3. Can't have them monkeys ruining your warehouse security, now can you? Them Space-monkeys could end up costing you millions...

Of course I have seen them, and I realized from the beginning what you meant as their use. However, this would, In my opinion be going into too much detail

Dani
I feel explosives should fit into different categories for more advanced explosives we shouldn't be using the same explosives to blow up a building as we do a tank and we don't want to be using the same explosives in the industrial age as we do in the space age. (unless we plan to do an upgrade system like the organs)
It wouldn't be that hard to implement once we have simple explosives implemented.