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| Function Part Discussion | |
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+14penumbra espinosa Jimexmore Aiosian_Doctor_Xenox Thriving Cheese FunnyGames Holomanga untrustedlife Raptorstorm WilliamstheJohn Sundu US_of_Alaska Daniferrito NickTheNick Tarpy 18 posters | |
Author | Message |
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Daniferrito Experienced
Posts : 726 Reputation : 70 Join date : 2012-10-10 Age : 30 Location : Spain
| Subject: Re: Function Part Discussion Tue May 28, 2013 11:18 pm | |
| Yes, increasing how fast a plant can be harvested is what it does. However, what plants does it work with is non-trivial.
A scythe works great with grain and similars. However, for harvesting melons, the thing changes. As we are not going to have predefined plants, we need a way of defining what plants can be harvested with scythes and what plants dont. It is the same ptoblem as with cotton, that was brought up some time ago. | |
| | | Aiosian_Doctor_Xenox Learner
Posts : 196 Reputation : 5 Join date : 2013-05-27 Age : 34 Location : Kent
| Subject: Re: Function Part Discussion Tue May 28, 2013 11:20 pm | |
| Almost anything can be used as a weapon if it can be held, though some more effective than others. *looks at propane torch and monkey wrench*
Well, maybe there could be code markers in parts of the plants that define their harvest class, or something along those lines. | |
| | | NickTheNick Overall Team Co-Lead
Posts : 2312 Reputation : 175 Join date : 2012-07-22 Age : 28 Location : Canada
| Subject: Re: Function Part Discussion Tue May 28, 2013 11:21 pm | |
| Aren't things like cotton and fruit distinguished as part of the plant? The scythe would only be used for the stalk. For example, cotton plants aren't cut from the cottony part, but from the stalk, as is wheat. | |
| | | Daniferrito Experienced
Posts : 726 Reputation : 70 Join date : 2012-10-10 Age : 30 Location : Spain
| Subject: Re: Function Part Discussion Tue May 28, 2013 11:22 pm | |
| That just brings the problem back, but doesent solve it. How do we decide what plants recieve that markers and whick dont? | |
| | | Aiosian_Doctor_Xenox Learner
Posts : 196 Reputation : 5 Join date : 2013-05-27 Age : 34 Location : Kent
| Subject: Re: Function Part Discussion Tue May 28, 2013 11:28 pm | |
| Maybe it's a piece in the stalk? Or the player can choose in the plant's AI how it is harvested, or what the computer should detect it as?
Just thinking out loud here. (Sort of. .3.) | |
| | | NickTheNick Overall Team Co-Lead
Posts : 2312 Reputation : 175 Join date : 2012-07-22 Age : 28 Location : Canada
| Subject: Re: Function Part Discussion Tue May 28, 2013 11:31 pm | |
| Ohh, I see. I think the best way to solve this is to identify scenarios where there would be a problem, and then trying to find a solution that way, like you already did above.
Melons wouldn't be cut themselves, but the stalk that hold them to the main part of the plant would be. And wouldn't that be sufficient? Then you just take it back to the farm and cut it up, or ship it to somewhere where they do that, but where and how they cut it is not important.
EDIT: Any examples I can think of, the stalk is cut, and the rest of the fruit or whatever is being detached is taken off and collected. | |
| | | Daniferrito Experienced
Posts : 726 Reputation : 70 Join date : 2012-10-10 Age : 30 Location : Spain
| Subject: Re: Function Part Discussion Tue May 28, 2013 11:40 pm | |
| Well, you can cut melons just as fast with your hand that with a scythe. And the benefit of a scythe is that you can cut 20+ wheat stalks at once, instead of doing it one by one.
We could just ignore the part of cuting things, so the unit just has to get there, pick up as much as it can (by their maximum weight carried) and bring it back to the central stockpile. In that case, scythes would be useless, but we avoided the problem with it. | |
| | | NickTheNick Overall Team Co-Lead
Posts : 2312 Reputation : 175 Join date : 2012-07-22 Age : 28 Location : Canada
| Subject: Re: Function Part Discussion Tue May 28, 2013 11:46 pm | |
| Thats a good point of the collective harvesting of wheat being the function of scythes, but removing scythes altogether seems like taking out too much. How could we differentiate between plant parts like wheat and cotton, which are collected with scythes (I read someplace that cotton is cut with scythes, and then another that said it isn't), from fruits, which generally aren't? | |
| | | Aiosian_Doctor_Xenox Learner
Posts : 196 Reputation : 5 Join date : 2013-05-27 Age : 34 Location : Kent
| Subject: Re: Function Part Discussion Wed May 29, 2013 12:09 am | |
| Tags in the coding that the AI or whatever can pick up on?
I'm not exactly a coder yet, so I'm not sure if that's possible. | |
| | | Daniferrito Experienced
Posts : 726 Reputation : 70 Join date : 2012-10-10 Age : 30 Location : Spain
| Subject: Re: Function Part Discussion Wed May 29, 2013 3:27 am | |
| Adding a tag to say that a plant can be best harvested using a scythe would be the best way. However, we need a way of deciding what plants recieve that tag and what plants dont. That is, a way the compoter can look at a plant and tell if it is suitable to be harvested by a scythe.
Unless/Untill someone comes up with a way of doing so, we need a simpler way of doing that. That is, all plants can be harvested faster with a scythe, or the harvesting is independant of the scythe. | |
| | | NickTheNick Overall Team Co-Lead
Posts : 2312 Reputation : 175 Join date : 2012-07-22 Age : 28 Location : Canada
| Subject: Re: Function Part Discussion Wed May 29, 2013 4:12 am | |
| I think all plants being harvested faster would be preferable over no scythes for harvesting, if we can't think of how to apply the tags. | |
| | | Daniferrito Experienced
Posts : 726 Reputation : 70 Join date : 2012-10-10 Age : 30 Location : Spain
| Subject: Re: Function Part Discussion Wed May 29, 2013 4:22 am | |
| Ok for me. That would settle scythes unless someone comes up with a way of discerning proper scythe-able plants. Probably when we get to doing the evolving plants we will have a better way of discerning them, as we will know how plants are stored.
Next one is net. Nets have two uses i my opinion. Main one is fishing. the bigger are the net has, the more fish it catches, but it can only catch fish bigger than the size of the holes. Bigger nets or smaller holes just means more resources to build them and heavier nets. The fish population dynamics will handle that the fish is not an infinite resource.
The other use i can think of is for making traps. However, we might just ignore that case.
Nets need to be made out of the same material ropes are.
Anything else?
@Nick: You might want to update the list on the first post. | |
| | | WilliamstheJohn Regular
Posts : 409 Reputation : 10 Join date : 2012-12-26 Age : 31 Location : Third Rock from Sol
| Subject: Re: Function Part Discussion Wed May 29, 2013 5:45 am | |
| Nets should also increase speed of fish harvest. Also, i have idea how that could function: - Spoiler:
Small nets (15-30cm wide): 20% boost to fishing Medium nets (30cm-4m wide): 50% boost to fishing Large nets (+4m): 100% boost to fishing
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| | | Daniferrito Experienced
Posts : 726 Reputation : 70 Join date : 2012-10-10 Age : 30 Location : Spain
| Subject: Re: Function Part Discussion Wed May 29, 2013 6:02 am | |
| Isnt that what i said? Nets would be used for fishing.
However, it should not just increse fish gathering speed. Mainly because without a net, you cannot fish anything. If a ship goes out to the sea without a net, it will come back with 0 fishes, so a 40% increase of 0 is useless.
On top of that, nets are usually much bigger. Also, nets should be measured in m2 (area), not just linear distance. I would look up some nets usual sizes, but my internet is acting funny and i dont have access to some parts of it (i blame google's dns server) | |
| | | Aiosian_Doctor_Xenox Learner
Posts : 196 Reputation : 5 Join date : 2013-05-27 Age : 34 Location : Kent
| Subject: Re: Function Part Discussion Wed May 29, 2013 8:55 am | |
| Well, not all nets are massive, what about hand nets that tribal might use?
Also, some boats today use Longlines, which are usually fairly effective, since it's just a really long fishing line or cable with hooks at intervals, sometimes it is used for fishing things like marlin, or on certain vessels, dropping the line down deep to catch deep-sea fish, etc.
Or just send a boat out with a lot of fishing poles, that could be for like tourist fishing, and keeping up population morale.
I'd post a link to a source with other types of fishing boats n' things, but I can't yet. .3.
Note: Maybe "Cages" could be changed to something more like "Crab Pots". Just a thought. __________________________________________________________________________________
Maybe the plant tag is in part of the stem, or maybe what the plant produces? Or maybe it is player-set when they make plants or something? | |
| | | Daniferrito Experienced
Posts : 726 Reputation : 70 Join date : 2012-10-10 Age : 30 Location : Spain
| Subject: Re: Function Part Discussion Wed May 29, 2013 9:03 am | |
| Well, nets can go from small ones to the massive one that are used on massive fishing ships. All sizes will be allowed.
For other ways of fishing, other FP are needed. Those are to be discussed when discussing those other FP.
For the tags, if the player was obligated to make all plants himself we wount have much problems. He would decide what plants deserve what tags and that would be it. But as most players wont want to manually create plants (and they wont be able to anyway untill god-mode) that is not a solution. If we add a tag for it, we need a way of placing-not placing the tag. | |
| | | Aiosian_Doctor_Xenox Learner
Posts : 196 Reputation : 5 Join date : 2013-05-27 Age : 34 Location : Kent
| Subject: Re: Function Part Discussion Wed May 29, 2013 9:12 am | |
| Maybe the tag is in a part? Like how there's fruit, maybe one part will produce grains, one cottony substances, etc.? | |
| | | untrustedlife Regular
Posts : 252 Reputation : 19 Join date : 2013-03-26 Location : [Classified]
| Subject: Re: Function Part Discussion Wed May 29, 2013 9:22 am | |
| - Aiosian_Doctor_Xenox wrote:
- Well, not all nets are massive, what about hand nets that tribal might use?
Also, some boats today use Longlines, which are usually fairly effective, since it's just a really long fishing line or cable with hooks at intervals, sometimes it is used for fishing things like marlin, or on certain vessels, dropping the line down deep to catch deep-sea fish, etc.
Or just send a boat out with a lot of fishing poles, that could be for like tourist fishing, and keeping up population morale.
I'd post a link to a source with other types of fishing boats n' things, but I can't yet. .3.
QFT | |
| | | Tarpy Strategy Team Lead
Posts : 337 Reputation : 23 Join date : 2013-03-08 Location : Here
| Subject: Re: Function Part Discussion Wed May 29, 2013 10:32 am | |
| Despite the fact that I do know the difference between longlines and ordinary nets, I can't think of a reason why longlines would have an impact on the game.
Basically, the larger the net, the more fish you catch but they will also need a much larger force to be pulled out of the water. Units can only be equipped with small nets and will catch much less fish than a ship obviously, however, in the early phases of the post-sapience stage, these would be very useful since these early civ's most probably either won't have the technology or the wealth to build these ships.
Updated the description. | |
| | | Daniferrito Experienced
Posts : 726 Reputation : 70 Join date : 2012-10-10 Age : 30 Location : Spain
| Subject: Re: Function Part Discussion Wed May 29, 2013 11:02 am | |
| Well, units are limited by the max weight they can carry, so that limits the size of the net they can carry. Plus, it will have to carry the fish it gathered as well, so...
About the more force you need to get it out, you would just take it out slower.
I agree it could be a usefull source of food early on it the tribe happens to be close to a fish-rich area, and if the creatures' digestive system can handle it.
You dont actually need much tecnology to go fishing on a boat with nets. All you need is a small wooden vehicle that can float, a way of moving it (paddles i believe they are called) and the nets. Actually, i believe the net is more tecnologically advanced than the actual ships (but its not a prerequisite, its just easier to get wooden ships)
Of course, huge ships that can go for months on the sea, that freeze the fish to keep it from decaying, with sonars to locate the fish schools, and all that fancy stuff is much advanced, but you dont need that for one-day trips into close sea. | |
| | | Aiosian_Doctor_Xenox Learner
Posts : 196 Reputation : 5 Join date : 2013-05-27 Age : 34 Location : Kent
| Subject: Re: Function Part Discussion Wed May 29, 2013 6:15 pm | |
| Well, nets cover larger areas than longlines, yes, but longlines would probably be just as easy, if not easier to produce, plus it can be easier to limit your quotas with the lines an not grab unintended victims like your planets equivalent to dolphins sharks or whales, this way you can regulate your fishing industry so you don't over fish an area quite so easily. Just my thoughts on that, let me know if you need me to clarify anything. | |
| | | Tarpy Strategy Team Lead
Posts : 337 Reputation : 23 Join date : 2013-03-08 Location : Here
| Subject: Re: Function Part Discussion Thu May 30, 2013 8:40 am | |
| When you set a quota (or what fish you actually want to catch) I doubt that catching other fish should affect anything. Wrong fish would just be set free. | |
| | | Aiosian_Doctor_Xenox Learner
Posts : 196 Reputation : 5 Join date : 2013-05-27 Age : 34 Location : Kent
| Subject: Re: Function Part Discussion Thu May 30, 2013 8:53 am | |
| Hmm... I guess I shall look for a the pros and cons of longlining and netting, then. To the search engine! Well, it would seem the food institute known as Nofima seems to believe that longling brings in better quality fish. - Spoiler:
Whiter and firmer fish fillet “We have analysed and compared fish caught by long-lining and fish from trawler catches. This has shown that line-caught fish has a whiter flesh and gives a firmer fillet. The most important reasons for the better flesh quality of line-caught fish are better bleeding out and less compression damage,” says researcher Bjørn Tore Rotabakk of Nofima Mat. Both the compression damage and the poor bleeding out are caused because trawling brings up from five to twenty tons of fish onto the deck each time, while with long-lining the fish are brought on board one by one. Researchers and sensory assessors at Nofima Mat in Stavanger have carried out chemical, technical and sensory analyses in order to assess fish quality. Taste assessors have judged the fish on colour, texture, smell, splitting and surface, while chefs at the Gastronomic Institute have assessed the flavour. The conclusion of both groups is that line-caught fish has a much higher quality.
Lower CO2 consumption Østfoldforskning has been responsible for creating a complete environmental audit for line-caught cod. Their analyses show the carbon audit for finished products, which indicates that for each kilo of fish products sold to the consumer there are emissions of 2.35 kilos of CO2 equivalents. “We have made thorough analyses of line-caught fish and these have been compared with previous data from trawler fishing, including from a recent Icelandic study. This study shows that trawler-caught cod accounts for more than three times the greenhouse gas emissions and energy consumption of line-caught cod. We see that even with very careful estimates, the energy consumption of long-line fishing in Norwegian waters is half that of trawling in the same waters,” explains researcher Erik Svanes of Østfoldforskning. A survey from Norwegian waters shows that in terms of fuel consumption, an autoline vessel uses 0.32 litres of diesel per kilo of round fish, a normal trawler 0.58 litres and a factory trawler 0.72 litres. All three examples are for fishing far offshore. Coastal fishing with shorter transport distances will naturally have a lower diesel consumption. Coastal fishing using seines, nets or jigs gives a diesel consumption of 0.21 litres per kilo of round fish. Coastal long-lining gives an even lower consumption, about 0.18 litres of fuel per kilo of product delivered to the consumer. “But the big problem for coastal fishing is that the coastal cod is a threatened species, so it is primarily deep sea fishing that has been assessed in this project,” says Svanes. He adds that another problem with fishing with nets is that it is not unusual to lose the gear, which then remains lying on the bottom. This means that fish continue to swim into the net, causing a great deal of fish mortality over a long period.
Last edited by Aiosian_Doctor_Xenox on Thu May 30, 2013 8:59 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Information found.) | |
| | | NickTheNick Overall Team Co-Lead
Posts : 2312 Reputation : 175 Join date : 2012-07-22 Age : 28 Location : Canada
| Subject: Re: Function Part Discussion Thu May 30, 2013 7:28 pm | |
| Longlines can be added as well, but nets are a must, since they are so easy to use and common. Net size should only affect the maximum volume it can hold. The unit equipping the net should only be able to equip it if they had enough strength, after deducting everything else they are carrying, to carry that net at max capacity. That way, players wont be making unrealistically large nets that the unit shouldn't be able to carry.
Also, I don't think we should have the player bother with the specific underwater organisms they are catching. Any organism is food, with larger ones taking more space, and smaller ones less. Some will have more meat on their bodies, some less. All that should happen when a unit begins the action of using their net is that random underwater organisms in the water are caught into the net until the unit stops or the net reaches its cap. It would be too much micro to go specifically say, "you catch these fish, you catch these..." and to also simulate units catching the wrong fish. | |
| | | Aiosian_Doctor_Xenox Learner
Posts : 196 Reputation : 5 Join date : 2013-05-27 Age : 34 Location : Kent
| Subject: Re: Function Part Discussion Thu May 30, 2013 10:05 pm | |
| Well at this point, yeah it does seem superfluous, but maybe some point way off in the future, after the structure of the game is virtually finished, things like that could be made as add-ons or something. (I'll probably be able to code by then, so i could help with that. | |
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