Implementing Underwater Civilizations

So, i'm probably going a bit sci-fi here and possibly a bit crazy, sorry if I go off ranting about impossible things, I swear i'm normally smart. Anyways, I have a few questions. So, you said that it was a natural trend based off of the creatures chemical composition, but, what if it was not carbon based but instead another material with a high melting point, say tungsten? If this isn't making sense, i'm sorry, chemistry is not my forte. Also, by chemical forging(fancy name I made up) I mean that there could be some sort of new substance discovered, that when exposed to another substance, could become workable to the point where it could be made into things. Now, I know we've never really discovered a substance like that, and you said that all these atoms with bigger nuclei are unstable, but is that on earth, or is that everywhere? Is it possible for some of these radioactive elements to be non-radioactive on another planet?

That is everywhere, and we have already agreed on only carbon based life forms.

Belgium, well, i'm out of brilliant ideas, sorry.

Of course, with different element based life, the conditions would be different, but I believe we alredy discarded anything other than carbon based life. Not because anything else is impossible (althrough some argue that it is), but because if such thing existed, we have no clue of what its limitations and characteristics could possibly be. Well, i know one: nothing can survive at over 10.000º Celsius. Or Kelvin, it doesen't really matter. At that temperature absolutelly everything breaks into nucleus and electrons (althrough some substances do earlier) Ok, Nick managed to post before i could finish this, so this first part only serves of a whyonly carbon based life.

About elements being unstables, no, they are unstable everywhere, no matter the environement. However, you probably meant to refer to substaces or compounds, of which there are many. And i have to go back from what i said earlier: we humans have tried out lots of the simpler combinations, the ones that a stone age-species has avaible. Or the ones that can realistically appear on big enough quantities on a planet.

About the chemical forging: I don't see usable a material that is hard when in normal state, and then gets maleable when exposed to a different substance. That would stay maleable, and won't be usable. The good idea is the other way around: a maleable substance, so you can give it the shape you want, then when exposed to a second substance it gets really hard. Such thing exists, and it is called glue. At first, glue is maleable, but when exposed to air for long enough, it gets hard. However, if both substances exist naturally on the ocean, then they would get in contact really easily and the substance in its workable state won't exist any more. So one of those substances has to be artificially created. What brings me to my next idea:

What if the creature naturally created a substance that could be worked, and that hardens to be used the same way we use metals? Something like what spiders generate: a filament that can suport more than kelvar. If a substance like that exists, cells are the best suited to create it. The only problem i see is that such an organ is very unprobable to develop. And such an organ developing to allow an underwater creature to evolve would be the definitive prove of inteligent design, or at least of guided evolution, proving the existence of a god or an overseer guiding the faith of the species, so religuion would dominate over science, stoping science development. So we would be stuck at the same problem, being unable to advance tecnologically.

Well, although unlikely, it is possible. It could evolve as some sort of defense mechanism, perhaps that when attacked it exudes this substance onto it's body and it hardens into a shell. Maybe at some point they got smart enough to use it for other things, like tools. Also, I got another brilliant idea! Induction heating! They could use magnets to smelt the metal! Here, check out this link:

http://i.minus.com/ibhivyegZTuldq.gif

Also, we could perhaps do something like bombardier beetles. When they are attacked, they use a special organ in their abdomen and mix two chemicals. They then explode out of it's rear at 100C. I know that's not hot enough to smelt metal, but say the animals had different chemicals that made it hotter. It might not necessarily evolve for smelting, but instead for defense, boiling the water around it while it hid inside a heat resistant shell. So, although there is the problem of it not being to move because the water's boiling and it's inside it's shell, what they could do is rig it up to a container, because the only part exposed would be the part that's resistant to the heat. Therefore, they could make some superheated steam and blast the metal with it. Either they evolve the mechanism or they domesticate another species that can.

No, magnets to melt metals are not possible for someone at the stone age. You would need:
-Around 10kW of steady supply of power.
-Really advanced and complicated electronic devices to generate the right electrical current.
-Advanced knowledge of materials propierties, and electromagnetism.
-Huge amounts of copper for the cables.
-Insulation to make it work underwater.

An animal doesent have any reason to produce a fuel that burns so hot for a deffensive mechanism. At 100º C it is enough to kill or severilly wound anything (depending on the size), hotter temperatures will only take much longer to create the fluids for (producing something that burns at double the energy requires double the input).

So, I was recently reading about some of the pre-columbian civilizations of the Americas, right? There were many great civs in the Americas, especially in central and south America, along with the northcoast around BC and Alaska. Also, many did have metal tools because they were able to find pure metals coming out of the ground. Now, obviously metal use was not on the scale of other continents, but even if you take out there metal use then they still had grand civilisations. Many Aztec, Mayan and Inca cities were said to be much cleaner and better built than European cities. They had powerful weapons that used just wood and rocks like obsidian. These weapons were incredibly deadly:

"Pedro de Morón was a very good horseman, and as he charged with three other horsemen into the ranks of the enemy the Indians seized hold of his lance and he was not able to drag it away, and others gave him cuts with their broadswords, and wounded him badly, and then they slashed at the mare, and cut her head off at the neck so that it hung by the skin, and she fell dead."

That's a quote from one of Cortes' conqueror. So you could definetly get to the medieval age at least with some technologies, and I'm sure it would evolve past a tribe. I just think we're seriously underestimating how advanced these civilizations could become.

EDIT: "Obsidian was a highly integrated part of daily and ritual life, and its widespread and varied use may be a significant contributor to Mesoamerica's lack of metallurgy." Quote from Wikipedia.
Maybe if there obsidian (Or something equally useful) then they would be able to advance farther.

Yes, we all agree on that. Even without metals you can get to an impresive civilization, but you cannot go much further. In order to get to the most advanced stuff you need metalworking, and for metalworking you need fire.

Yes, I've realized that, it's just that some people were under the influence that you would stay a hunter/gatherer tribe or even just a pod of whales without metal working. So real civs are possible, but you just get stuck in the classical era or in game terms, society stage, with limited metal working and the tech tree cut short in a couple places. Well, I guess that settles that. Seeing as we have so many sci-fi fans, I feel we've already burned through even the wackiest ideas.

That doesnt settle this. Now you've entered history, my kind of subject.

The Mesoamericans could not be claimed to be in the classical age or the medieval age. They were at most a bronze age society. And I say bronze age becausethey were not without metallurgy. Along with obsidian, bronze was a metal they used for their tools. Even in villages that wouldn't produce it, peoples like the Tarascan would trade bronze tools and jewellery to them.

Quote :

Belgium, well, i'm out of brilliant ideas, sorry.

This should have been your first post. You obviously neglected to do many of the things necessary for us to discuss this. I'll state them in order:
-Read the ModDB post on this. It contains just about everything you need to know
-Read this thread. Your ideas are so simple and obvious that I can only assume you think the rest of us are uncreative simpletons and that this thread has, prior to your arrival, centered discussion around what we had for lunch the other day. Its not that your ideas are stupid, it's that the rest of us already had them and discussing them for the umpteenth time is a waste of our efforts.
-Obtain a working understanding of the universe. if you expect to discuss physics, chemistry, and biology, we expect that you have some idea of what those fields are and some of their basic principles.
-Think about your posts prior to posting them. There must be some filter between your impulses and the keyboard.

I apologize for being rough, but I'm very, very tired of doing this.

Enjoy your ban.

New theme about an Underwater Civilizations

~sciocont wrote:

Quote :

Belgium, well, i'm out of brilliant ideas, sorry.

This should have been your first post. You obviously neglected to do many of the things necessary for us to discuss this. I'll state them in order:
-Read the ModDB post on this. It contains just about everything you need to know
-Read this thread. Your ideas are so simple and obvious that I can only assume you think the rest of us are uncreative simpletons and that this thread has, prior to your arrival, centered discussion around what we had for lunch the other day. Its not that your ideas are stupid, it's that the rest of us already had them and discussing them for the umpteenth time is a waste of our efforts.
-Obtain a working understanding of the universe. if you expect to discuss physics, chemistry, and biology, we expect that you have some idea of what those fields are and some of their basic principles.
-Think about your posts prior to posting them. There must be some filter between your impulses and the keyboard.

I apologize for being rough, but I'm very, very tired of doing this.

Enjoy your ban.

~SCIOCONT WINS!
FATALITY

~sciocont wrote:

Quote :

Belgium, well, i'm out of brilliant ideas, sorry.

This should have been your first post. You obviously neglected to do many of the things necessary for us to discuss this. I'll state them in order:
-Read the ModDB post on this. It contains just about everything you need to know
-Read this thread. Your ideas are so simple and obvious that I can only assume you think the rest of us are uncreative simpletons and that this thread has, prior to your arrival, centered discussion around what we had for lunch the other day. Its not that your ideas are stupid, it's that the rest of us already had them and discussing them for the umpteenth time is a waste of our efforts.
-Obtain a working understanding of the universe. if you expect to discuss physics, chemistry, and biology, we expect that you have some idea of what those fields are and some of their basic principles.
-Think about your posts prior to posting them. There must be some filter between your impulses and the keyboard.

I apologize for being rough, but I'm very, very tired of doing this.

Enjoy your ban.

1. None of my ideas had been suggested before, and since when has simple ever meant bad? In fact, simple solutions are the best in my opinion.
2. Every time I couldn't find the answer to my question on the internet I asked. I have no illusions that me, a 14 year old boy, has more knowledge that a university student.
3.If my ideas are such a waste of time, why even respond to them? you may have moved on to other things, but i'm trying to solve a problem. I'm not trying to say you don't do a huge amount of work which you do, but what you said did not benefit anything, wasn't even constructive criticism, but closer to an attempt at insult.

Also, @Nick.

Sorry, I shouldn't have generalized like that. I would say that some of the civs in that area could be called that advanced, such as the maya.

zippybomb wrote:

1. None of my ideas had been suggested before, and since when has simple ever meant bad? In fact, simple solutions are the best in my opinion.
2. Every time I couldn't find the answer to my question on the internet I asked. I have no illusions that me, a 14 year old boy, has more knowledge that a university student.
3.If my ideas are such a waste of time, why even respond to them? you may have moved on to other things, but i'm trying to solve a problem. I'm not trying to say you don't do a huge amount of work which you do, but what you said did not benefit anything, wasn't even constructive criticism, but closer to an attempt at insult.

Also, @Nick.

Sorry, I shouldn't have generalized like that. I would say that some of the civs in that area could be called that advanced, such as the maya.

I'll give you some credit here. The discussion on this topic has been very thorough, though it has occurred in many places. I've discussed all of your ideas before, tough not necessarily on this thread. Some of your ideas, however, were already discussed on this thread, as you alluded to in your first post.
In order to stop this from happening anymore, I'm going to start on a comprehensive document of refutation for this. I'll begin by pointing out what makes your suggestions unworkable. Actually, come to think of it I have created such a document, but It was posted on my derelict Tumblr and thus no one read it, because I don't want to be that guy always telling you to read my blog that I never post on.

Quote :

could maybe discover a material as you're foraging that, when mixed with something else becomes malleable for a short period of time and is able to be cast into a weapon or whatever you're making.

And this material would be...?

Quote :

On the topic of volcanic vents, people have said that they are way too cold to use for metals, right? BUT, again, these are alien worlds. Couldn't the core be way hotter than ours? That would make hydrothermal vents useful for metallurgy. And the argument that it would cook the animal?

If the vent is hot enough to melt a metal that can be found natively in nature, then swimming close to it will kill you. The proteins in your organism's body will denature and your cells will collapse and melt apart.

Quote :

So, if the underwater creature was able to read and manipulate the DNA of other creatures through some freaky power it evolved, they could theoretically create a civ.

You're suggesting that your organism possesses biotech generations ahead of the technology that humans have, yet is unable to create an iron knife. The only way this could be conceivable is if there was some freaky power that gave them the technology, which constitutes uplifting.

Quote :

CHEMICAL FORGING

Sure, that would be great to include. We'll have seregon write a software that can accurately model every chemical possible, and accurately represent its properties. The chemists of the world are waiting on this.

You went in knowing a ban may have been in your future, you received the ban, and now we are back here to our standard discourse. This means that the ban worked, since you have now learned to be more careful when posting on this thread, and that's all I really want.

Sorry, I may have overreacted and been a bit of a Belgium. Anyways, I know my ideas were pretty far-fetched, and sorry if they were downright impossible. I think this topic is really hinging on wether we go for more of a simulator or more of a game. Also, I didn't realize these ideas had already been discussed because a lot of the other topics had been consolidated into one thread.

~sciocont wrote:

zippybomb wrote:

1. None of my ideas had been suggested before, and since when has simple ever meant bad? In fact, simple solutions are the best in my opinion.
2. Every time I couldn't find the answer to my question on the internet I asked. I have no illusions that me, a 14 year old boy, has more knowledge that a university student.
3.If my ideas are such a waste of time, why even respond to them? you may have moved on to other things, but i'm trying to solve a problem. I'm not trying to say you don't do a huge amount of work which you do, but what you said did not benefit anything, wasn't even constructive criticism, but closer to an attempt at insult.

Also, @Nick.

Sorry, I shouldn't have generalized like that. I would say that some of the civs in that area could be called that advanced, such as the maya.

I'll give you some credit here. The discussion on this topic has been very thorough, though it has occurred in many places. I've discussed all of your ideas before, tough not necessarily on this thread. Some of your ideas, however, were already discussed on this thread, as you alluded to in your first post.
In order to stop this from happening anymore, I'm going to start on a comprehensive document of refutation for this. I'll begin by pointing out what makes your suggestions unworkable. Actually, come to think of it I have created such a document, but It was posted on my derelict Tumblr and thus no one read it, because I don't want to be that guy always telling you to read my blog that I never post on.

Quote :

could maybe discover a material as you're foraging that, when mixed with something else becomes malleable for a short period of time and is able to be cast into a weapon or whatever you're making.

And this material would be...?

Quote :

On the topic of volcanic vents, people have said that they are way too cold to use for metals, right? BUT, again, these are alien worlds. Couldn't the core be way hotter than ours? That would make hydrothermal vents useful for metallurgy. And the argument that it would cook the animal?

If the vent is hot enough to melt a metal that can be found natively in nature, then swimming close to it will kill you. The proteins in your organism's body will denature and your cells will collapse and melt apart.

Quote :

So, if the underwater creature was able to read and manipulate the DNA of other creatures through some freaky power it evolved, they could theoretically create a civ.

You're suggesting that your organism possesses biotech generations ahead of the technology that humans have, yet is unable to create an iron knife. The only way this could be conceivable is if there was some freaky power that gave them the technology, which constitutes uplifting.

Quote :

CHEMICAL FORGING

Sure, that would be great to include. We'll have seregon write a software that can accurately model every chemical possible, and accurately represent its properties. The chemists of the world are waiting on this.

You went in knowing a ban may have been in your future, you received the ban, and now we are back here to our standard discourse. This means that the ban worked, since you have now learned to be more careful when posting on this thread, and that's all I really want.

There was one thing they conversed about that had potential-not to the point of space travel, but to the point of vehicles and such (the conversation about secreted substances like spider webs). Vehicles would have to be powered similar to bikes, but could quite easily be made to carry multiple "people" with one or two "pedaling" (pedaling in quotation marks because i have no clue what limbs they'd use, if any at all). I have come to the conclusion that you are right in that metal work is impossible, but i think strong secreted substances should be included in the game, just to give people the opportunity to try, waste of time or no.,

Secreted substances still dont have the density or ductility to create the framework or machinations of vehicles. For example, a bicycle made out of spider webs is ludicrous.

On a side note, there is something that i dont see anyone realized. An underwater creature cannot even create stone tools. In order to do so, you need to hit two rocks with a lot of strenght and speed. However, underwater you cannot move things fast, as water resistance slows you down significatly. That makes the process of tool crafting really hard.

Scio Nick (ups) posted before i could finish writing about secreted substances, so i deleted that from my post.

Daniferrito wrote:

On a side note, there is something that i dont see anyone realized. An underwater creature cannot even create stone tools. In order to do so, you need to hit two rocks with a lot of strenght and speed. However, underwater you cannot move things fast, as water resistance slows you down significatly. That makes the process of tool crafting really hard.

Scio Nick (ups) posted before i could finish writing about secreted substances, so i deleted that from my post.

Unless you're a pistol shrimp, whose claw is very quick, but that'd get rid of the need for tools, since you already have a really cool weapon to hunt with.

Daniferrito wrote:

On a side note, there is something that i dont see anyone realized. An underwater creature cannot even create stone tools. In order to do so, you need to hit two rocks with a lot of strenght and speed. However, underwater you cannot move things fast, as water resistance slows you down significatly. That makes the process of tool crafting really hard.

Scio Nick (ups) posted before i could finish writing about secreted substances, so i deleted that from my post.

Well sea otters do, to break open shells, but that's probably not as difficult as making tools, but I think underwater creatures have evolved to compensate. I mean, even when your swimming and your kick off the walls or something like that, you actually do move pretty fast. I think that they would just have to alter their technique.

zippybomb wrote:

Daniferrito wrote:

On a side note, there is something that i dont see anyone realized. An underwater creature cannot even create stone tools. In order to do so, you need to hit two rocks with a lot of strenght and speed. However, underwater you cannot move things fast, as water resistance slows you down significatly. That makes the process of tool crafting really hard.

Scio Nick (ups) posted before i could finish writing about secreted substances, so i deleted that from my post.

Well sea otters do, to break open shells, but that's probably not as difficult as making tools, but I think underwater creatures have evolved to compensate. I mean, even when your swimming and your kick off the walls or something like that, you actually do move pretty fast. I think that they would just have to alter their technique.

It's quite feasible for a creature to secrete a hard substance. Cephalopods like snails and ammonites do (did) it. Your point about tool making is valid, but not necessarily preventative of stoneworking, it just makes it a hell of a lot harder.
As for creating vehicles, it's possible, but they won't get you very far on land if you can't breathe air.

~sciocont wrote:

zippybomb wrote:

Daniferrito wrote:

On a side note, there is something that i dont see anyone realized. An underwater creature cannot even create stone tools. In order to do so, you need to hit two rocks with a lot of strenght and speed. However, underwater you cannot move things fast, as water resistance slows you down significatly. That makes the process of tool crafting really hard.

Scio Nick (ups) posted before i could finish writing about secreted substances, so i deleted that from my post.

Well sea otters do, to break open shells, but that's probably not as difficult as making tools, but I think underwater creatures have evolved to compensate. I mean, even when your swimming and your kick off the walls or something like that, you actually do move pretty fast. I think that they would just have to alter their technique.

It's quite feasible for a creature to secrete a hard substance. Cephalopods like snails and ammonites do (did) it. Your point about tool making is valid, but not necessarily preventative of stoneworking, it just makes it a hell of a lot harder.
As for creating vehicles, it's possible, but they won't get you very far on land if you can't breathe air.

Of course, being underwater is a bittersweet blessing. You can't do things with as much speed, but the vehicles would have to be much less sturdy. And you wouldn't have to make the whole thing out of the resin, but instead just stick together pieces.

NickTheNick wrote:

Secreted substances still dont have the density or ductility to create the framework or machinations of vehicles. For example, a bicycle made out of spider webs is ludicrous.

What about a bicycle made out of wood and stone/coral nails?

Well those aren't secreted substances. Where would they get the wood from if they are fully aquatic?