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| Implementing Underwater Civilizations | |
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Armok: God of Blood Newcomer
Posts : 50 Reputation : 2 Join date : 2012-10-20 Age : 27 Location : Either Golarion, Nirn, or Boatmurdered
| Subject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:00 am | |
| - NickTheNick wrote:
- Well those aren't secreted substances. Where would they get the wood from if they are fully aquatic?
An underwater plant with a woody trunk or bamboo-like stems. | |
| | | NickTheNick Overall Team Co-Lead
Posts : 2312 Reputation : 175 Join date : 2012-07-22 Age : 28 Location : Canada
| Subject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:25 pm | |
| I was under the impression that wood bearing plants cannot grow underwater.
Also, if they could grow, how would one swing their appendage holding the tool fast enough, underwater, to cut the wood? | |
| | | ~sciocont Overall Team Lead
Posts : 3406 Reputation : 138 Join date : 2010-07-06
| Subject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:04 pm | |
| - NickTheNick wrote:
- I was under the impression that wood bearing plants cannot grow underwater.
Also, if they could grow, how would one swing their appendage holding the tool fast enough, underwater, to cut the wood? It's not that growing wood underwater is physically impossible, it's that there's no reason to grow a sturdy support structure when you already have water for support. They could easily obtain wood from a log sink, where logs drift out to ocean and gradually fall to the seafloor, but wood found in this way would be far from ideal. There is no physical reason why the animals could not construct a bicycle-like vehicle using natural materials. It would just be quite labor intensive. | |
| | | Armok: God of Blood Newcomer
Posts : 50 Reputation : 2 Join date : 2012-10-20 Age : 27 Location : Either Golarion, Nirn, or Boatmurdered
| Subject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:14 pm | |
| - NickTheNick wrote:
- I was under the impression that wood bearing plants cannot grow underwater.
Also, if they could grow, how would one swing their appendage holding the tool fast enough, underwater, to cut the wood? Knap a stone into a saw and cut the wood that way. | |
| | | NickTheNick Overall Team Co-Lead
Posts : 2312 Reputation : 175 Join date : 2012-07-22 Age : 28 Location : Canada
| Subject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:16 pm | |
| No, my point was that underwater one would not be able to swing their "arm" or move the saw fast enough to have significant effect. | |
| | | Armok: God of Blood Newcomer
Posts : 50 Reputation : 2 Join date : 2012-10-20 Age : 27 Location : Either Golarion, Nirn, or Boatmurdered
| Subject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:15 am | |
| - NickTheNick wrote:
- No, my point was that underwater one would not be able to swing their "arm" or move the saw fast enough to have significant effect.
If I had gills and trees grew underwater I would prove you wrong. You don't need to saw fast to get the desired effect; it just takes a while. | |
| | | NickTheNick Overall Team Co-Lead
Posts : 2312 Reputation : 175 Join date : 2012-07-22 Age : 28 Location : Canada
| Subject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:27 am | |
| A long while, and that what I meant by significant effect. | |
| | | Armok: God of Blood Newcomer
Posts : 50 Reputation : 2 Join date : 2012-10-20 Age : 27 Location : Either Golarion, Nirn, or Boatmurdered
| Subject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:48 am | |
| So, with soft metals, rocks, and aquatic wood, you could probably get pretty far up the technological ladder. | |
| | | MitochondriaBox Learner
Posts : 188 Reputation : 7 Join date : 2013-01-29 Age : 25 Location : Houston, Texas
| Subject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:36 pm | |
| - AlexaiZ wrote:
- So, with soft metals, rocks, and aquatic wood, you could probably get pretty far up the technological ladder.
Soft metals? Would they be pure or in ore form? How would we bang shape them into the shape we want? Unless you evolve your species to give them front limb movement as fast as a karate chop, or make them able to do a rapid pistol-shrimp motion to shoot a ray of water (almost as hot as the sun in reality) and melt the metal to a degree, but it would cool down too quickly. | |
| | | NickTheNick Overall Team Co-Lead
Posts : 2312 Reputation : 175 Join date : 2012-07-22 Age : 28 Location : Canada
| Subject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:48 pm | |
| - AlexaiZ wrote:
- So, with soft metals, rocks, and aquatic wood, you could probably get pretty far up the technological ladder.
No one, including you, has yet established how metalworking would take place underwater, soft or hard. Sciocont's blog reads: - Quote :
- Our final verdict is that Metalworking is next to impossible underwater
So until you establish that in a way that hasn't been already mentioned, you can't include it on your list. That just leaves you with aquatic wood, which really would NOT get anyone pretty far up the technological ladder. If you had read some of the more recent posts on this thread, you would have seen that someone suggested that the Aztecs were somewhat advanced, yet lacked metal. I explained to him that even the Aztecs traded with their neighbours for bronze and other metal tools. So even those credited with getting that far with only obsidian really didn't. Aquatic wood won't take you anywhere, metal will. | |
| | | zippybomb Newcomer
Posts : 73 Reputation : 2 Join date : 2012-06-13 Age : 26 Location : Vancouver, Canada
| Subject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:06 pm | |
| Well actually, it's possible to do metal working, you just can't smelt. If you found veins with pure metal, you wouldn't need to melt it, just heat it up enough to bang it into shape. It would, however, still be very limiting. And I wouldn't call them tribes, there is a lot of things you can do without metal. | |
| | | Daniferrito Experienced
Posts : 726 Reputation : 70 Join date : 2012-10-10 Age : 30 Location : Spain
| Subject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:14 pm | |
| If you can shape them in cold (or with low temperatures) it wont be really usefull, as any strong force will deform them.
For example, with some time you could shape a tool out of pure gold (if you had pure gold avaible), but it will only be good for looks. At the first use it will start to deform, and in a few more uses it will be unusable, | |
| | | NickTheNick Overall Team Co-Lead
Posts : 2312 Reputation : 175 Join date : 2012-07-22 Age : 28 Location : Canada
| Subject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:23 pm | |
| - zippybomb wrote:
- you wouldn't need to melt it, just heat it up enough to bang it into shape
This is in Scio's blogpost. - Spoiler:
In order to work metals, you have to heat them up past a specific temperature, which is usually quite high. You needn’t melt them completely, but melting point is a good guide to the temperature needed to work with them. Of course some metals don’t even need to be considered for melting points, since they are never found free in nature, and they would have to be found free in nature for the aquatic species to work with them. These metals are the alkali and alkali earth metals, plus aluminum, manganese and zinc. For these, especially the alkalis, which explode on contact with water, use -and discovery- underwater is almost impossible to imagine. Iron, Nickel, Tin, and Lead are all very easy to work with, but underwater are likely to oxidize quickly, or in the case of lead, pose a danger to the organism. On top of that they’re only very rarely found free in nature, so we can essentially count them out.
Metals commonly found in nature include Copper, a great candidate for metalworking, Bismuth, Mercury, and Silver. Bismuth isn’t great to work with because it’s quite soft, Mercury isn’t solid at the same temperatures that water is liquid, plus it’s highly toxic, so it’s a noncandidate. Platinum and gold are usually found free as well, but are too soft to do a whole lot with. So our best candidate for metalworking underwater would be copper or silver. Let’s see what temperatures we would need to melt copper.
The melting point of copper is 1084.62°C, which, you might realize, is fairly hot.
One of the most common proposals on the forums is that metalworking be carried out at undersea hot vents, volcanoes, black smokers, or continental rifts. Assuming that these lie close enough to the surface not to crush the organism under the pressure of water above, they seem to everyone like a good candidate for a neptunian forge. I don’t use the term everyone lightly: at Thrive we’ve had this suggested probably a dozen or more times by many different members and fans, all of whom make the mistake of thinking that we have no idea what we’re doing.
Unfortunately, we like science at Thrive, so we’ve done our homework on the subject- here are a few suggested “forges” and their respective temperatures- bearing in mind that copper’s melting point is 1084.62°C.
Black Smoker- Up to 464°C
Magma- Up to 1300°C
Komatiite Magma (Hottest type known)- up to around 1600°C
Aha, so there is magma hot enough to melt copper. Which is great if that’s all you’re looking for. But I like to kill things dead. Considering that this is going to take place underwater, the environment immediately around the Komatiite Magma is going to be extremely hot as well, since water is a great heat conductor and has a very high specific heat, hot enough to severely injure or kill any large animal around it. At temperatures of even 100°C, almost every organism known, save some bacteria, is going to die. So even at lower temperatures, it’s extremely dangerous to approach something so hot in water, and that copper isn’t going to be easy to work with. - zippybomb wrote:
- And I wouldn't call them tribes, there
is a lot of things you can do without metal. From what I can think of society would be very limited without it. If you could give some examples/evidence otherwise I would be interested to hear. | |
| | | ~sciocont Overall Team Lead
Posts : 3406 Reputation : 138 Join date : 2010-07-06
| Subject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:36 pm | |
| Can we let this die, or must you be banned again?
| |
| | | Armok: God of Blood Newcomer
Posts : 50 Reputation : 2 Join date : 2012-10-20 Age : 27 Location : Either Golarion, Nirn, or Boatmurdered
| Subject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:29 am | |
| This is going to be the last time I post on this topic. - ~sciocont wrote:
- GhengopelALPHA wrote:
- I'd like to point something out out, it's three words: Underwater Volcanic Vents. Now I don't know what would happen IRL for an intelligent species in the open seas, but a recent thought experiment of mine based on Europa and "Europan life" if it exists got me wondering, if life would be suited to only thrive around volcanic vents, then these would be the centerpiece to their societies. They would replace fires that early humans used. Heating metal would be no problem for them if they found some just washing around, thus, casting and smithing might not be impossible, but it would be dangerous and difficult. I say that technological societies underwater are indeed possible, but only if the life is centered on underwater volcanic vents.
We've gone over this a lot- the vents simply aren't hot enough to melt metals down. Undersea vents on earth reach up to 464 °C, so only very heavy metals (gold, lead) would melt down. These metals really aren't very useful in technology underwater. And even if you do find a metal that's useful, the heat would almost certainly kill your creature, since the water surrounding it would be a supercritical fluid and would denature its enzymes unless it evolved right there- and if it did that, it probably wouldn't evolve intelligence. Every angle of this has been covered. We have firmly established that soft metals are meltable underwater. Wood, rocks, resin, hides, and soft metals can be worked into a variety of different shapes fit for many types of T.O.s. "Fast transportation" and quick strikes are nigh impossible underwater, but sawing and stabbing motions of the sort are possible with a sufficient number of workers or time. Electronics are impossible underwater without insulation that I could only see as being made out of "underwater latex" or resin. With these things in mind, I believe that a species with access to insulation could become a society with electricity. Ones without could most likely have bioluminescent lighting and live in a society similar to our late 18th or early 19th century. Space travel would be very, very difficult to achieve, if not impossible. Feel free to discuss, criticize, and argue over my ideas on this topic. I'll go continue to post in topics that aren't so volatile and dangerous to post in. | |
| | | MitochondriaBox Learner
Posts : 188 Reputation : 7 Join date : 2013-01-29 Age : 25 Location : Houston, Texas
| Subject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:18 am | |
| - AlexaiZ wrote:
- Long post is long.
Very well. Let the players have their gallium spears and swords! It can melt in your hand, 'know. | |
| | | zippybomb Newcomer
Posts : 73 Reputation : 2 Join date : 2012-06-13 Age : 26 Location : Vancouver, Canada
| Subject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:15 am | |
| - ~sciocont wrote:
- Can we let this die, or must you be banned again?
Me? Sorry, I was just trying to answer his question. And also, I feel like the problem with soft metals, is that, well, they're soft. Too soft to be of any use other than a few tools and maybe a knife. | |
| | | NickTheNick Overall Team Co-Lead
Posts : 2312 Reputation : 175 Join date : 2012-07-22 Age : 28 Location : Canada
| Subject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:38 pm | |
| - AlexaiZ wrote:
- This is going to be the last time I post on this topic.
- ~sciocont wrote:
- GhengopelALPHA wrote:
- I'd like to point something out out, it's three words: Underwater Volcanic Vents. Now I don't know what would happen IRL for an intelligent species in the open seas, but a recent thought experiment of mine based on Europa and "Europan life" if it exists got me wondering, if life would be suited to only thrive around volcanic vents, then these would be the centerpiece to their societies. They would replace fires that early humans used. Heating metal would be no problem for them if they found some just washing around, thus, casting and smithing might not be impossible, but it would be dangerous and difficult. I say that technological societies underwater are indeed possible, but only if the life is centered on underwater volcanic vents.
We've gone over this a lot- the vents simply aren't hot enough to melt metals down. Undersea vents on earth reach up to 464 °C, so only very heavy metals (gold, lead) would melt down. These metals really aren't very useful in technology underwater. And even if you do find a metal that's useful, the heat would almost certainly kill your creature, since the water surrounding it would be a supercritical fluid and would denature its enzymes unless it evolved right there- and if it did that, it probably wouldn't evolve intelligence. Every angle of this has been covered. We have firmly established that soft metals are meltable underwater. Wood, rocks, resin, hides, and soft metals can be worked into a variety of different shapes fit for many types of T.O.s. "Fast transportation" and quick strikes are nigh impossible underwater, but sawing and stabbing motions of the sort are possible with a sufficient number of workers or time. Electronics are impossible underwater without insulation that I could only see as being made out of "underwater latex" or resin. With these things in mind, I believe that a species with access to insulation could become a society with electricity. Ones without could most likely have bioluminescent lighting and live in a society similar to our late 18th or early 19th century. Space travel would be very, very difficult to achieve, if not impossible. Feel free to discuss, criticize, and argue over my ideas on this topic. I'll go continue to post in topics that aren't so volatile and dangerous to post in. What you quoted contradicts what you said. I am still unaware of any occasion in which underwater metalworking with soft metals was established. If you find a post or explain yourself how it could work underwater I'd be interested to hear, but you don't have to quit the thread. And so if there is no soft metal the rest of those materials would not be sufficient in getting the player out of the stone age, even if they make it look like a very fancy stone age. | |
| | | Armok: God of Blood Newcomer
Posts : 50 Reputation : 2 Join date : 2012-10-20 Age : 27 Location : Either Golarion, Nirn, or Boatmurdered
| Subject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:07 am | |
| - NickTheNick wrote:
- Almighty Quote Pyramid
I don't want to get banned, so I don't want to post in this thread. I'll PM you if you want, but I'm not going to put my account at risk over this. | |
| | | NickTheNick Overall Team Co-Lead
Posts : 2312 Reputation : 175 Join date : 2012-07-22 Age : 28 Location : Canada
| Subject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:45 am | |
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| | | Dannyboy1238
Posts : 1 Reputation : 0 Join date : 2013-03-28
| Subject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations Thu Mar 28, 2013 5:31 pm | |
| I hope i dont get banned for posting this, since it seems like it's been a while since anyone posted. Now heres how i think underwater civilizations CAN be possible. First off, you're not the only thing evolving. There could be great civilizations being built around you and you wouldn't know it. BUT eventually these civilizations will go to war for control, fighting on land, in the air, and in the sea. Ships will sink, and planes will crash. Maybe, a ship happens to sink, maybe a plane happens to crash nearby your colony of fish people things. These things aren't sinking because they're getting too much water, they're sinking because they're being shot at, pieces flying off, supplies being lost, sometimes even whole ships and planes exploding into pieces. Who says you cant use this metal, use the supplies/weapons that sunk with the ship to cut into the metal, or even attack a submarine and study the technology.
Just my two cents. | |
| | | ~sciocont Overall Team Lead
Posts : 3406 Reputation : 138 Join date : 2010-07-06
| Subject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations Thu Mar 28, 2013 5:36 pm | |
| - Dannyboy1238 wrote:
- I hope i dont get banned for posting this, since it seems like it's been a while since anyone posted.
Now heres how i think underwater civilizations CAN be possible. First off, you're not the only thing evolving. There could be great civilizations being built around you and you wouldn't know it. BUT eventually these civilizations will go to war for control, fighting on land, in the air, and in the sea. Ships will sink, and planes will crash. Maybe, a ship happens to sink, maybe a plane happens to crash nearby your colony of fish people things. These things aren't sinking because they're getting too much water, they're sinking because they're being shot at, pieces flying off, supplies being lost, sometimes even whole ships and planes exploding into pieces. Who says you cant use this metal, use the supplies/weapons that sunk with the ship to cut into the metal, or even attack a submarine and study the technology.
Just my two cents. This is a form of uplifting the civilization- giving them technology they can't create themselves. You are correct here. | |
| | | NickTheNick Overall Team Co-Lead
Posts : 2312 Reputation : 175 Join date : 2012-07-22 Age : 28 Location : Canada
| Subject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations Wed May 22, 2013 9:06 pm | |
| This did not deserve its own thread. Of all the already discussed questions you could have asked in a new and unnecessary thread, you chose underwater civs. Go read through this thread and see if it answers your question, which I'm pretty sure it does.
EDIT: Oh, the post got deleted. | |
| | | Atrox Newcomer
Posts : 98 Reputation : 4 Join date : 2013-05-22 Age : 26
| Subject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations Wed May 22, 2013 9:15 pm | |
| Sorry Nick I didn't realize it was moved so i thought i put it here by accident and then i read the first page so i freaked out and deleted it. Anyways my idea was underwater caves, and I understand that there are many issues with this, but I may have come up wth some solutions. I read through this thread and noticed that one of the problems with underwater caves is that the fire would use up the oxygen in the cave. Well I did some research and apparently if the cave was big enough, the oxygen wouldn't be depleted for quite some time (i don't know if long enough to forge something. maybe just enough for a simple tool). | |
| | | ~sciocont Overall Team Lead
Posts : 3406 Reputation : 138 Join date : 2010-07-06
| Subject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations Wed May 22, 2013 10:16 pm | |
| - Atrox_Somnium wrote:
- Sorry Nick I didn't realize it was moved so i thought i put it here by accident and then i read the first page so i freaked out and deleted it. Anyways my idea was underwater caves, and I understand that there are many issues with this, but I may have come up wth some solutions. I read through this thread and noticed that one of the problems with underwater caves is that the fire would use up the oxygen in the cave. Well I did some research and apparently if the cave was big enough, the oxygen wouldn't be depleted for quite some time (i don't know if long enough to forge something. maybe just enough for a simple tool).
To use the cave for this purpose, it would have to be fairly large. You'd also have to bring in flammable material, make sure it's dry, and somehow start the fire. If you're a dolphin, you can't do that. If you're a mermaid, the chances of all that happening are slim to none. Beyond this, there's some question as to whether/how caves will exist in the game, since our current concept for planet modeling isn't extremely conducive to it. | |
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