Extended Research List

Subject: Re: Extended Research List Wed Dec 22, 2010 3:23 pm

~sciocont wrote:: Geeks. Get a life and obsess over editors like I do.

You make it sound like if it was work requiring a brain. Don't know about Alaska or Rex, but I would not be here if it was true.

Subject: Re: Extended Research List Sat Dec 25, 2010 8:27 pm

Keeping posting as you requested, Alaska. (bump)

Subject: Re: Extended Research List Sun Dec 26, 2010 3:27 pm

ALARM, ALARM! THE DOWNLOAD LINK IS BROKEN!

Maybe you could temporary upload what you did until now?

Subject: Re: Extended Research List Mon Dec 27, 2010 10:00 pm

Sorry guys, i've been a little busy over christmas. I should be able to get some real work done after new year. I'll see if i can fix the link.

EDIT: It's working for me now, guys.

Subject: Re: Extended Research List Mon Dec 27, 2010 10:24 pm

Just gave the .PDF a look-over- Belgium, you guys are really getting things done.

Subject: Re: Extended Research List Tue Jan 18, 2011 1:08 am

yes but reasearching seismology triggering natural disasters is a bit funny .the opposite should have
composites should be renames composites materials. iraises the armor of all units

new tech

urbanization= build walls

feudalism= a new goverment feudal monarchy= you can give your cities to a vassal (ai) in return of tax or military health.vassals should be like allied cities taking care of their own affairs .they are prone to rebellion.
casttle building. you can build castles
metalurgy .cannons are availiable
totalitarianism =police station=unhappiness

Subject: Re: Extended Research List Tue Jan 18, 2011 3:50 am

bill2505 wrote:: new tech

urbanization= build walls
We had walls well before what I think most would consider urban.
feudalism= a new goverment feudal monarchy= you can give your cities to a vassal (ai) in return of tax or military health.vassals should be like allied cities taking care of their own affairs .they are prone to rebellion.
I think most govornments are going to be player created. Or am I missing something here, like this allowing vassals to be created?
casttle building. you can build castles
Would likely go along with knowledge of stoneworking and...um, I think mortar (right word?) is a bit too Earth-centric sounding. Ah, cement maybe. Hm, I should take a look at tech tree to see if something like that is on there. Will update this part.EDIT: Fortifications are a research item, allowing the creation of walls.
metalurgy .cannons are availiable
Needs gunpowder, and cannons are somthing that would be built in the Tech editor, not just discovered with a type of technology.
totalitarianism =police station=unhappiness
Kind of like with the feudalism and monarchy, I might be missing something but I think that govornments are built by the player, with certain idea techs unlocking certain things that can then be implemented in the govornment and culture. (I need to update myself with some of these things).EDIT: Yep, looks about right.

I've been looking through the tech tree (6th page so far) and some of the techs have requisites that are not listed, such as democracy's lack of alphabet and currency, or fortification's requirement of stone napping.

EDIT: Nix the code of laws problem. They were just further down the list.

EDIT again: I'm just going to make a list of questions and such. (Sorry if any of this has been discussed)

Questions & Critique: How does religion lead to clockwork?
Are there supposed to be triggers for education, Algebra, Quantum Physics, ?
How is a hearing horn triggered by exploration?
Team sports can arise without printing I'm pretty sure, or did Natives have access to printing and keep it secret for hundreds of years?
Why does military science require music?
Representation is not listed but is required for Labor Unions.
What is meant by 'radio senses' in the Radio tech block?
Why would Thermodynamics or Quantum Physics possibly be required for compulsory education?
Public Transit could speed up travel in large cities, but would be less effective the less densely populated the area.
What is the difference between Physics and Modern Physics?
Weaving machines => Computers???
Mass media could improve happiness (because we really need more stuff to do that [/sarcasm]). Um, dang, it is kinda tough to think about how that could affect us in-game.
Weren't the Chinese trying to do seismology rather early on (well before having access to machine tools and modern physics)?

And now I am done.

Subject: Re: Extended Research List Tue Jan 18, 2011 5:31 am

Poisson wrote:

bill2505 wrote:: new tech

urbanization= build walls
We had walls well before what I think most would consider urban.
feudalism= a new goverment feudal monarchy= you can give your cities to a vassal (ai) in return of tax or military health.vassals should be like allied cities taking care of their own affairs .they are prone to rebellion.
I think most govornments are going to be player created. Or am I missing something here, like this allowing vassals to be created?
casttle building. you can build castles
Would likely go along with knowledge of stoneworking and...um, I think mortar (right word?) is a bit too Earth-centric sounding. Ah, cement maybe. Hm, I should take a look at tech tree to see if something like that is on there. Will update this part.EDIT: Fortifications are a research item, allowing the creation of walls.
metalurgy .cannons are availiable
Needs gunpowder, and cannons are somthing that would be built in the Tech editor, not just discovered with a type of technology.
totalitarianism =police station=unhappiness
Kind of like with the feudalism and monarchy, I might be missing something but I think that govornments are built by the player, with certain idea techs unlocking certain things that can then be implemented in the govornment and culture. (I need to update myself with some of these things).EDIT: Yep, looks about right.

I've been looking through the tech tree (6th page so far) and some of the techs have requisites that are not listed, such as democracy's lack of alphabet, code of laws and currency, or fortification's requirement of stone napping.

EDIT: Nix the code of laws and probably currency problem. They were just further down the list.

i know how cannons are going to be created in the editor.just instead of requiring only gunpoweder to require metallurgy too

also

also to have a fortification tech for modern era defencive building like bunkers

stirrup should have a military role(increase mounted troops combat or something like this) because without them there would never be kinghts

also why constitution gives prizon.i thing something like a court or something like this should be better

a new tech named ballistics.slightly increases weapon range(multi reasearch tech)

also a early tech absolutism=Despotism govermnet. powerful in the early stages but not good later(corruption-rebelions

Totalitarianism=police state
cappitalism as a goverment
medicine also should increase people growth
here is a formulla for population growth
(this is from a game so dont take in acount the number)
Your population grows by the following formula: (base growth+growth)* researches and bonuses. The population grows with different speed depending on where it is employed at:

1. The unemployed population grows at - 100%.
2. Workers hired in production and free economy grow at 50%.
3. Workers hired in the University grow at 0% (they do not grow at all!)
- Education and Medicine technologies decrease and increase the population growth respectively.
- Your population is in constant need of energy in order to grow. Energy consumption depends on the employment.

Subject: Re: Extended Research List Tue Jan 18, 2011 1:56 pm

Bill, please do research before posting your ideas. I understand your intents, but make sure you know what you're saying before you put something out there. Example: You suggest capitalism be a political system. However, Capitalism is not and has never been a political system, but an economic one. You may be refering to plutocracy, but you did not say such.

Also, please try and explain your reasoning behind these suggestions when you give them.

Subject: Re: Extended Research List Tue Jan 18, 2011 2:04 pm

Tenebrarum wrote:: Bill, please do research before posting your ideas. I understand your intents, but make sure you know what you're saying before you put something out there. Example: You suggest capitalism be a political system. However, Capitalism is not and has never been a political system, but an economic one. You may be refering to plutocracy, but you did not say such.

Also, please try and explain your reasoning behind these suggestions when you give them.

sorry about capitalism .i have been fooled from wikkipedia

whats wrong with new tech

Subject: Re: Extended Research List Tue Jan 18, 2011 2:17 pm

bill2505 wrote:: whats wrong with new tech

First off: "What's wrong with these new techs?" Sorry. That's been bothering me.

Second: We're currently in a debate on totally redoing this research tree. Please refrain from adding anything until this debate is ended.

Third: They are Researches, not techs. This is to avoid confusion with objects made in the tech editor.

Fourth: There is a lot of redundancy here. Doublecheck the tree before posting an idea to make sure it's not already on there.

Subject: Re: Extended Research List Tue Jan 18, 2011 2:20 pm

Tenebrarum wrote:

bill2505 wrote:: whats wrong with new tech

First off: "What's wrong with these new techs?" Sorry. That's been bothering me.

Second: We're currently in a debate on totally redoing this research tree. Please refrain from adding anything until this debate is ended.

Third: They are Researches, not techs. This is to avoid confusion with objects made in the tech editor.

Fourth: There is a lot of redundancy here. Doublecheck the tree before posting an idea to make sure it's not already on there.

sorry then . i wont make anymore question

Subject: Re: Extended Research List Tue Jan 18, 2011 2:48 pm

P.S. I don't mean to be rude. Just constructive. I apologize if I have made any offense. *Blush*

Subject: Re: Extended Research List Tue Jan 18, 2011 3:04 pm

I finished going through the tree and looking for problems or things that didn't make sense. I would appreciate some feedback.

Subject: Re: Extended Research List Tue Jan 18, 2011 3:53 pm

As you wish, Poisson.

Quote :: Questions & Critique: How does religion lead to clockwork? - That was explained by Rex some pages back, you might want to take a look or ask him
Are there supposed to be triggers for education, Algebra, Quantum Physics, ? - I think these are researchable only.
How is a hearing horn triggered by exploration? - Well, that's a replacement of optics for species with hearing as their main sense...
Why does military science require music? - Alaska haven't fixed that yet.
Representation is not listed but is required for Labor Unions. - That's a problem to be fixed.
What is meant by 'radio senses' in the Radio tech block? - Don't know, maybe passive radio receptors?
Why would Thermodynamics or Quantum Physics possibly be required for compulsory education? - Another thing to fix
Public Transit could speed up travel in large cities, but would be less effective the less densely populated the area. - Or they could just increase productivity
What is the difference between Physics and Modern Physics? - Don't know, maybe it's stuff like ballistics and all that, in one research?
Weaving machines => Computers??? - WE HAVE THAT IN THE TREE? Oh god...
Mass media could improve happiness (because we really need more stuff to do that [/sarcasm]). Um, dang, it is kinda tough to think about how that could affect us in-game. - Well, population happiness is quite important thing to count with, however, how will it be handled I don't know. As you pointed out, the sheer number of happiness researches would make citizens 1000% procent happy if you get them all...
Weren't the Chinese trying to do seismology rather early on (well before having access to machine tools and modern physics)? - Were they actually successful or were they just trying?

Subject: Re: Extended Research List Tue Jan 18, 2011 3:58 pm

Poisson wrote:: How does religion lead to clockwork?

It did on Earth. It should be listed as a trigger. Lot's of ceremonies = clockwork. Monks were trying to make sure they were doing the ceremonies at the right times. I'm not even joking.

Poisson wrote:: Are there supposed to be triggers for education, Algebra, Quantum Physics, ?

I don't believe we came up with any suitable ones.

Poisson wrote:: How is a hearing horn triggered by exploration?

It was originally supposed to be an equivalent to optics for races using sonar, but I feel we're missing the point here in that some races will be missing out on some things.

Poisson wrote:: Team sports can arise without printing I'm pretty sure, or did Natives have access to printing and keep it secret for hundreds of years?

I have no idea, but I think that team sports may be refering to team spectator sports, which usually don't become popular unless people can track them in tournaments and other extended events.

Poisson wrote:: Why does military science require music?

Needs fixing.

Poisson wrote:: Representation is not listed but is required for Labor Unions.

Glitch?

Poisson wrote:: What is meant by 'radio senses' in the Radio tech block?

Radio waves are a form of electro-magnetic radiation, just like light. Some races (Even on Earth) can "see" them.

Poisson wrote:: Why would Thermodynamics or Quantum Physics possibly be required for compulsory education?

As science becomes more complex, people begin seeing the nessecity for base education to continue the trend of advancement.

Poisson wrote:: Public Transit could speed up travel in large cities, but would be less effective the less densely populated the area.

Travel isn't currently a mechanic.

Poisson wrote:: What is the difference between Physics and Modern Physics?

Newton and Einstein.

Poisson wrote:: Weaving machines => Computers???

Have you ever studied the industrial revolution? Nothing is more valuable than cloth, so first machines made are weaving ones. (Eventually cloth's value decreases because of this.) In order to make computers you need skill in complex machinery. So: Weaving Machines.

Poisson wrote:: Mass media could improve happiness (because we really need more stuff to do that [/sarcasm]). Um, dang, it is kinda tough to think about how that could affect us in-game.

Spread of news, political idiologies, entertainment, cultural diffusion, etc, etc...

Poisson wrote:: Weren't the Chinese trying to do seismology rather early on (well before having access to machine tools and modern physics)?

Yes, but nothing truly note-worthy.

Subject: Re: Extended Research List Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:09 pm

Response to Keen:

Commander Keen wrote:

As you wish, Poisson.

Quote :: Questions & Critique: How does religion lead to clockwork? - That was explained by Rex some pages back, you might want to take a look or ask himWill look for it.
Are there supposed to be triggers for education, Algebra, Quantum Physics, ? - I think these are researchable only.Alright, makes sense.
How is a hearing horn triggered by exploration? - Well, that's a replacement of optics for species with hearing as their main sense...Ah, okay. I kinda remember seeing a discussion about that a while back.
Why does military science require music? - Alaska haven't fixed that yet.
Representation is not listed but is required for Labor Unions. - That's a problem to be fixed.
What is meant by 'radio senses' in the Radio tech block? - Don't know, maybe passive radio receptors?
Why would Thermodynamics or Quantum Physics possibly be required for compulsory education? - Another thing to fix
Public Transit could speed up travel in large cities, but would be less effective the less densely populated the area. - Or they could just increase productivityAh, that would make sense.
What is the difference between Physics and Modern Physics? - Don't know, maybe it's stuff like ballistics and all that, in one research?
Weaving machines => Computers??? - WE HAVE THAT IN THE TREE? Oh god...Yep. Copied directly from the tree:

Research: Computers
Requisites: Electronics AND Modern Physics
Allows: Tech Objects: Electronic Computer Function Parts: Vacuum Tube Computer (???)
Types: Science
Triggers: Use of electronics, weaving machines
Mass media could improve happiness (because we really need more stuff to do that [/sarcasm]). Um, dang, it is kinda tough to think about how that could affect us in-game. - Well, population happiness is quite important thing to count with, however, how will it be handled I don't know. As you pointed out, the sheer number of happiness researches would make citizens 1000% procent happy if you get them all...Yeah, we need some sort of fix for that, because that would not work well without something to limit it.
Weren't the Chinese trying to do seismology rather early on (well before having access to machine tools and modern physics)? - Were they actually successful or were they just trying?Well they didn't know why they happened but they were able to predict them. I remember learning about it in 7th grade. Ah, here's a link.

Thank you.

Response to Tenebarum:

Tenebrarum wrote:

Poisson wrote:: How does religion lead to clockwork?

It did on Earth. It should be listed as a trigger. Lot's of ceremonies = clockwork. Monks were trying to make sure they were doing the ceremonies at the right times. I'm not even joking. Ah, that's why. I guess religion being required and having no other option seemed rather odd.

Poisson wrote:: How is a hearing horn triggered by exploration?

It was originally supposed to be an equivalent to optics for races using sonar, but I feel we're missing the point here in that some races will be missing out on some things. Yeah, I was getting the same feeling after reading Keen said that.

Poisson wrote:: Team sports can arise without printing I'm pretty sure, or did Natives have access to printing and keep it secret for hundreds of years?

I have no idea, but I think that team sports may be refering to team spectator sports, which usually don't become popular unless people can track them in tournaments and other extended events. Ah, that would make more sense then.

Poisson wrote:: Representation is not listed but is required for Labor Unions.

Glitch? Might have just been an oversight. I didn't see currency in there either, though that may have just been my being tired as it was getting close to midnight when I was reading this.

Poisson wrote:: What is meant by 'radio senses' in the Radio tech block?

Radio waves are a form of electro-magnetic radiation, just like light. Some races (Even on Earth) can "see" them. Ah, I see. It just seemed to be worded oddly. Sensing EM waves would have made more sense, but that's just my opinion.

Poisson wrote:: Why would Thermodynamics or Quantum Physics possibly be required for compulsory education?

As science becomes more complex, people begin seeing the nessecity for base education to continue the trend of advancement. Ah, understood.

Poisson wrote:: Public Transit could speed up travel in large cities, but would be less effective the less densely populated the area.

Travel isn't currently a mechanic. Yeah, I realize that now. Keen proposed increase in production, which would come with improved transport anyways.

Poisson wrote:: What is the difference between Physics and Modern Physics?

Newton and Einstein. Ah, okay.

Poisson wrote:: Weaving machines => Computers???

Have you ever studied the industrial revolution? Nothing is more valuable than cloth, so first machines made are weaving ones. (Eventually cloth's value decreases because of this.) In order to make computers you need skill in complex machinery. So: Weaving Machines. Haven't learned about that yet, or my class never got very in depth about it. We learned more about steam power becoming more common. The weaving machines makes sense.

Subject: Re: Extended Research List Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:02 pm

Quick ideas from the doc in the OP:
What do you think about "Religious Liberty" rather than "Free Church"? Or perhaps simply "Tolerance"?

There should be some other prereq options for Flight. Perhaps "Physics AND Combustion OR Physics AND Thermodynamics AND Meteorology". Also, what about changing it to "Aviation"?

I had a thought while looking this over. Seems to be some bloat happening again; some items, which I'll list in a sec, are swelling the list, IMO needlessly. I know cases have been made for why all of these should exist, but I don't know that they're momentous enough to deserve their own - as I said last time I swooped in here. Still, I know you've put work into defining them, and it's a nuisance to re-shuffle the list every time a change is made.

So here's the idea:

Spoiler:

I worry that some serious winnowing is gonna have to happen here, or we'll risk player fatigue.

Subject: Re: Extended Research List Mon Jan 31, 2011 5:55 pm

I don't really have a comment on your reorganization idea, but Free Church is as it is because it really represents to different things, the Elizabethan Compromise, and the Medeival seperation of Church and State. It's part tolerance, but it's also that seperation that really dominates, removing the "Divine Right of Kings" from the mix. (It does pop back up again later though, after medieval culture falls in the rennaisance.)

Subject: Re: Extended Research List Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:45 pm

Recent posts:
Tenebrarum -
Thermodynamics and Quantum Physics are good ideas for non compulsory triggers for Compulsory Education, but in my opinion, we need more triggers. Not all species will be interested in the theoretical "these are the programming bits of the universe" Physics until education is compulsory. When education is a common commodity, more educated people will be available to work on less pressing issues such as quantum physics, rather than the more easily applied fields of biology, chemistry and engineering. Fix = good.

Redstar: Meh. The players won't see this bit in action. The more ways we can go through the tech tree, the more individual civilizations are going to be. I worry that it's going to be a PITB (B for belgium) to program, though.
I do agree that the Socioeconomic stuff, such as Oligarchy, Labor Unions, etc. shouldn't require "research." I always had an issue with that, as those are very spontaneous sorts of developments when the conditions are right. For Canals and the concrete things, I think we should still research them - it would take some trial and error to learn the best way to build one.

Subject: Re: Extended Research List Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:00 pm

Mysterious_Calligrapher wrote:: Recent posts:
Tenebrarum -
Thermodynamics and Quantum Physics are good ideas for non compulsory triggers for Compulsory Education, but in my opinion, we need more triggers. Not all species will be interested in the theoretical "these are the programming bits of the universe" Physics until education is compulsory. When education is a common commodity, more educated people will be available to work on less pressing issues such as quantum physics, rather than the more easily applied fields of biology, chemistry and engineering. Fix = good.

Redstar: Meh. The players won't see this bit in action. The more ways we can go through the tech tree, the more individual civilizations are going to be. I worry that it's going to be a PITB (B for belgium) to program, though.
I do agree that the Socioeconomic stuff, such as Oligarchy, Labor Unions, etc. shouldn't require "research." I always had an issue with that, as those are very spontaneous sorts of developments when the conditions are right. For Canals and the concrete things, I think we should still research them - it would take some trial and error to learn the best way to build one.

Well, someone has to think of these things don't they? You don't just wake up one day to find outthat everyone understands what an oligarchy is and how it works. Research is thinking, no? So while engineers would research aqueducts and concrete, philosophers would research Labor Unions and Monarchy. You can't just expect them to be there. As for your 'conditions are right', well that's what triggers are for.

And i have to say that we have slowed to a near halt on research. We really need to know whether we are going with a tree or smoth's branches.

Subject: Re: Extended Research List Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:09 pm

US_of_Alaska wrote:: Well, someone has to think of these things don't they?

Well, Labor unions, maybe - but not Oligarchy. I'm not talking philosophical concepts here, just different modes of societal organization, which develop more or less spontaneously.

Subject: Re: Extended Research List Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:11 pm

US_of_Alaska wrote:: Well, someone has to think of these things don't they? You don't just wake up one day to find outthat everyone understands what an oligarchy is and how it works. Research is thinking, no? So while engineers would research aqueducts and concrete, philosophers would research Labor Unions and Monarchy. You can't just expect them to be there. As for your 'conditions are right', well that's what triggers are for.

QFT. For each research we still need to set the trigger values. These could show up almost spontainiously if conditions are right and the appropriate research has been done.

US_of_Alaska wrote:: And I have to say that we have slowed to a near halt on research. We really need to know whether we are going with a tree or smoth's branches.

Definately need to settle this. Time to start a new thread dedicated to a vote?

Subject: Re: Extended Research List Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:12 pm

Yeah, new thread. We can settle the nitpicks later.

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