Extended Research List

Subject: Re: Extended Research List Fri Nov 26, 2010 5:20 pm

US_of_Alaska wrote:: Well, it was really to distinguish between coal engines (slow burning fuels) and oil-based product engines (combustible). If this is incorrect, please tell me. Then the ICE was just much smaller.

Well, it's still called only external and internal combustion, the real difference is in pressurization of the fuel. Maybe replace the Combustion engine with ICE and ICE with Pressurized ICE?

US_of_Alaska wrote:: Wasn't World War I fought with Semi-Automatic and WWII with Automatic? I think that's a significant enough amount of time to be included as different researches

Automatic weapons played a big role in WW1. They were still too heavy to carry around, but they were installed in fortifications (that's the cause of so huge infantry losses right after modern artillery).
Likewise, semi-automatic weapons were still one of the main infantry weapons in WW2 (think M1 Garand or K98).

US_of_Alaska wrote:: Heavy Firearms is Artillery, from memory. That can't be moved back to the time of the Matchlock Gun.

Remember that old medieval cannons are artillery as well.

US_of_Alaska wrote:: High energy needed and the reactor would be inconceivable. The atom bomb they dropped on Hiroshima was no reactor, it just compressed an atom with c-4 and then the atom smashed and released all it's energy. A reactor made out of this would be highly unsuited for use as a power station. Which does bring the question of when nuclear reactors became stable enough to be used for power... You wouldn't happen to know?

Nuclear bombs in fact are reactors, they are just built to release as much energy as possible before breaking down, whereas power plants have moderators to stop the reaction from going critical.
But the high energy need, I don't know about that, it would be a very late research if you don't make atomic bombs.
By the way, the first nuclear power plant was built ten years after the US army nuked Japan, so it might not need a different research.

US_of_Alaska wrote:: Should i kill Sonar? It should also be triggered by echolocation senses.

It would make sense to merge them into one research since they are similar and were invented at about the same time, but that would require a totally different name. Both technologies use waves, so maybe something like that?

Subject: Re: Extended Research List Fri Nov 26, 2010 11:45 pm

Lukas99 wrote:: I'm guessing that the triggers could be activated by trading with a nation that has that tech, or is that not how it works?

Just being in contact with a nation that has researches that you don't will add points towards that research. Open borders will boost this bonus, as will having citizens immigrate between the two nation.

Commander Keen wrote:: Well, it's still called only external and internal combustion, the real difference is in pressurization of the fuel. Maybe replace the Combustion engine with ICE and ICE with Pressurized ICE?

So ICE and Pressurized ICE. Will do.

Commander Keen wrote:: Automatic weapons played a big role in WW1. They were still too heavy to carry around, but they were installed in fortifications (that's the cause of so huge infantry losses right after modern artillery).
Likewise, semi-automatic weapons were still one of the main infantry weapons in WW2 (think M1 Garand or K98).

So just have the FP weights differ, and improve with ...dare i say it... levels.

Commander Keen wrote:: Remember that old medieval cannons are artillery as well.

What was it that led to the construction of Modern Artillery, then? It seems like a pretty big jump to make.

Commander Keen wrote:: Nuclear bombs in fact are reactors, they are just built to release as much energy as possible before breaking down, whereas power plants have moderators to stop the reaction from going critical.
But the high energy need, I don't know about that, it would be a very late research if you don't make atomic bombs.
By the way, the first nuclear power plant was built ten years after the US army nuked Japan, so it might not need a different research.

Hmmm... I really think that there needs to be some distinction between just crushing an atom so that it's energy is released and actually measuring the energy and being able to control it. I mean, if a player builds a nuclear plant that turns out to be just an A-Bomb, they're not going to be so happy.

Commander Keen wrote:: It would make sense to merge them into one research since they are similar and were invented at about the same time, but that would require a totally different name. Both technologies use waves, so maybe something like that?

Maybe just Electronic Echolocation?

Subject: Re: Extended Research List Sat Nov 27, 2010 9:30 am

US_of_Alaska wrote:: So just have the FP weights differ, and improve with ...dare i say it... levels.

That's exactly the way how levels should work.

US_of_Alaska wrote:: What was it that led to the construction of Modern Artillery, then? It seems like a pretty big jump to make.

Well, modern artillery appeared when breechloading, recoil damping, sights and indirect fire were invented. That was sometime in 19th century, so it's more than enough to make it a new research.

US_of_Alaska wrote:: Hmmm... I really think that there needs to be some distinction between just crushing an atom so that it's energy is released and actually measuring the energy and being able to control it. I mean, if a player builds a nuclear plant that turns out to be just an A-Bomb, they're not going to be so happy.

Maybe if the reactor FP is connected to a moderator/cooling, it will produce energy, otherwise it will go boom? If the player fails to make his plant secure, then he deserves to see a virtual Chernobyl.

US_of_Alaska wrote:: Maybe just Electronic Echolocation?

Sounds great.

Subject: Re: Extended Research List Sat Nov 27, 2010 5:46 pm

US_of_Alaska wrote:: Firework FPs into Gunpowder research?

That'll work. I'm not sure what to call basic military rockets though.

US_of_Alaska wrote:: I never said anything about mass transit... I said Public Transit.

I don't see a difference.

US_of_Alaska wrote:: Shouldn't thermodynamics unlock balloons? Will add wing and triggers.

People can make hot air balloons without understanding them, but okay.

US_of_Alaska wrote:: What the? Something went wrong. There are a few researches here that i could've sworn i deleted... I don't know what i did there. Willfix.

KK

US_of_Alaska wrote:: Indoor toilets are decoration, because they are interior furniture. adding a +Health bonus is representational of that. But adding pipes and water pumps is probably a good idea.

YUS.

US_of_Alaska wrote:: In fact, it should probably allow arts to spawn as music. I don't think anything else has that effect.

Well, music has existed since the dawn of time... Wouldn't it be a default?

US_of_Alaska wrote:: Why? I'm happy to include it, i just think it is a strange trigger

Ever heard of King Stephan's war? The hereditary rule thing only started after a civil war in England. And besides, dispute over succession and worthyness of the system is the only reason things like this ever change.

US_of_Alaska wrote:: This does make sense, but i think i'll change it to any Religion-Related TOs.

Coolio.

US_of_Alaska wrote:: Surplus population, you mean?

No. Sacrifice and human sacrifice are two utterly different things. Most cultures practice sacrifice commonly at some point, but few will commonly sacrifice humans. Look at the Bible. Cain and Able fight over who's sacrifice is worthier. The sacrifices: A goat and a bunch of vegetables.

US_of_Alaska wrote:: Hmm... This makes sense in relation to us. Do you think others would have the same solution? I guess either way it makes it a trigger, so i'll add it.

Yay!

US_of_Alaska wrote:: I'm not sure what the (Governmental Influence) means? Apart from that, i'll add military specialists as a trigger.

Hrm... I'm not sure either. I guess what I'm getting at is that cultures in which soldiers have high standing would develope this sooner, but I'm not sure how we'd show this.

US_of_Alaska wrote:: That research has been cut.

Now that I think on it, good. Horse-back javalins came before the lance anyways.

US_of_Alaska wrote:: I don't understand. The player can choose to force the population into specialists (Caste System - Low Freedoms) or influence the amount of specialists by spending resources. What is this sudden training? Do you mean ejecting from an SC?

Hrm.... I thought was that we'd be able to train specialists into a sort of militia-style as needed... thing... if the need arose, but okay.

US_of_Alaska wrote:: Don't understand this at all.

I didn't think you would. The reason we humans invented clocks was because of religion. Monks believed they needed to perform rituals at exactly the right hour of the day. Because time was uncertain, they invented a means of making it certain. I'm not suggesting this be the only trigger, but similar time-keeping attempts have popped up all over the world under similar circumstances, and as a result, I say it should be included.

US_of_Alaska wrote:: Do we have a mechanic for crime rates? I kind of just assumed this was represented by disorder.

Really. Okay, just reword it then.

US_of_Alaska wrote:: Why? Public Transport would be perfect for your cultural thing, i thought.

Mass Transit and public transit are the same thing. See my previous comment.

US_of_Alaska wrote:: The one up from Matchlock. Flintlock or something. I'm not so good with guns.

In order of invention: Triggerless(Just a hole and a guy holding a match.), Matchlock, Wheellock, Flinklock, Caplock(?). The last being the use of explosive caps.

Subject: Re: Extended Research List Sun Nov 28, 2010 8:03 pm

Commander Keen wrote:: Well, modern artillery appeared when breechloading, recoil damping, sights and indirect fire were invented. That was sometime in 19th century, so it's more than enough to make it a new research.

Yes, but what do i call this research? I originally had an artillery research but was convinced to change it because cannons are artillery and it needed to be more ambiguous for modern artillery weapons and not just for human modern artillery.

Commander Keen wrote:: Maybe if the reactor FP is connected to a moderator/cooling, it will produce energy, otherwise it will go boom? If the player fails to make his plant secure, then he deserves to see a virtual Chernobyl.

Okay, i can roll with that.

Tenebrarum wrote:: That'll work. I'm not sure what to call basic military rockets though.

That would just fall under Missile FPs, right?

Tenebrarum wrote:: I don't see a difference.

Well, to me Mass Transit is a train, but Public Transit is buses, taxis, trams and trains. Does that make any sense?

Tenebrarum wrote:: YUS.

Pipes and Water Pumps FPs. Adding.

Tenebrarum wrote:: Well, music has existed since the dawn of time... Wouldn't it be a default?

We still need a research to unlock it... Oral Tradition, maybe?

Tenebrarum wrote:: Ever heard of King Stephan's war? The hereditary rule thing only started after a civil war in England. And besides, dispute over succession and worthyness of the system is the only reason things like this ever change.

I haven't heard of it, but i'll believe you. Caste is a trigger for Aristocracy.

Tenebrarum wrote:: No. Sacrifice and human sacrifice are two utterly different things. Most cultures practice sacrifice commonly at some point, but few will commonly sacrifice humans. Look at the Bible. Cain and Able fight over who's sacrifice is worthier. The sacrifices: A goat and a bunch of vegetables.

OH! I didn't even think of it like that. Perfectly reasonable. Surplus of anything.

Tenebrarum wrote:: Hrm... I'm not sure either. I guess what I'm getting at is that cultures in which soldiers have high standing would develope this sooner, but I'm not sure how we'd show this.

I think that's well represented by a large number of Military Specialists, isn't it?

Tenebrarum wrote:: Hrm.... I thought was that we'd be able to train specialists into a sort of militia-style as needed... thing... if the need arose, but okay.

Well if you lower your personal freedoms slider you can assign however many people you want at the cost of happiness, which is basically what happens with conscriptions and the like.

Tenebrarum wrote:: I didn't think you would. The reason we humans invented clocks was because of religion. Monks believed they needed to perform rituals at exactly the right hour of the day. Because time was uncertain, they invented a means of making it certain. I'm not suggesting this be the only trigger, but similar time-keeping attempts have popped up all over the world under similar circumstances, and as a result, I say it should be included.

Makes sense. It's definitely a trigger.

Tenebrarum wrote:: Really? Okay, just reword it then.

Triggered by disorder.

Tenebrarum wrote:: Mass Transit and public transit are the same thing. See my previous comment.

I don't believe so. See my previous comment.

Tenebrarum wrote:: In order of invention: Triggerless(Just a hole and a guy holding a match.), Matchlock, Wheellock, Flinklock, Caplock(?). The last being the use of explosive caps.

How does that translate into researches, though? Do i need to rename it? What if an alien civilisation invents different locks in a different order? This is why i settled for Firearm Lock and Advanced Lock.

Subject: Re: Extended Research List Sun Nov 28, 2010 9:54 pm

US_of_Alaska wrote:: Yes, but what do i call this research? I originally had an artillery research but was convinced to change it because cannons are artillery and it needed to be more ambiguous for modern artillery weapons and not just for human modern artillery.

Pst! Pst! Just butting in here, but most medeival cannons were breech loaders.

US_of_Alaska wrote:: That would just fall under Missile FPs, right?

Well, the difference is tech, isn't it? We've got rockets, and we've got missiles.

US_of_Alaska wrote:: Well, to me Mass Transit is a train, but Public Transit is buses, taxis, trams and trains. Does that make any sense?

Yes, but it doesn't work that way in practice. If you have a bunch of seats than a bunch of people can sit in it.

US_of_Alaska wrote:: We still need a research to unlock it... Oral Tradition, maybe?

Sounds good.

Subject: Re: Extended Research List Mon Nov 29, 2010 10:44 am

US_of_Alaska wrote:: Yes, but what do i call this research? I originally had an artillery research but was convinced to change it because cannons are artillery and it needed to be more ambiguous for modern artillery weapons and not just for human modern artillery.

Well, if it can't be Modern Artillery, then we could call it Indirect Fire Warfare or just Indirect Warfare (not the greatest names, but I can't find anything better..) .

US_of_Alaska wrote:: How does that translate into researches, though? Do i need to rename it? What if an alien civilisation invents different locks in a different order? This is why i settled for Firearm Lock and Advanced Lock.

I think it's fine to call them this way, just rename Advanced Lock to Advanced Firearm Lock to avoid confusion.

Tenebrarum wrote:: Pst! Pst! Just butting in here, but most medeival cannons were breech loaders.

Oh, you are right, completly forgot about that. Still, we can say that modern breechloaders were the thing .

Tenebrarum wrote:: Well, the difference is tech, isn't it? We've got rockets, and we've got missiles.

Rocket is anything with rocket engine, missile is a rocket with a guidance system. Guess rockets and missiles will have to be small TOs, not FPs. No need to worry though, we certainly are going to have them premade.

Subject: Re: Extended Research List Wed Dec 01, 2010 12:12 am

Tenebrarum wrote:: Pst! Pst! Just butting in here, but most medeival cannons were breech loaders.

CommanderKeen wrote:: Well, if it can't be Modern Artillery, then we could call it Indirect Fire Warfare or just Indirect Warfare (not the greatest names, but I can't find anything better..) .

We still haven't been able to come up with what it was that made the difference between a cannon and an Artillery. I am really not well read in this guys, so i have no clue. But Rex knows cannons, and Keen, you know artillery (i gather) so surely you two can figure out what the best name for this research is. I'm counting on you for this guys.

Also, i'm not happy with the name Indirect Warfare, as that to me seems like more of a cultural research, and how a war is fought. It would be like having a research for Trench or Mechanised Warfare.

Tenebrarum wrote:: Well, the difference is tech, isn't it? We've got rockets, and we've got missiles.

CommanderKeen wrote:: Rocket is anything with rocket engine, missile is a rocket with a guidance system. Guess rockets and missiles will have to be small TOs, not FPs. No need to worry though, we certainly are going to have them premade.

I've always thought of missiles and rockets as the same thing. There's missiles nd Guided Missiles, as far as i'm concerned. Why can't they be Function Parts? I've always thought they fit best into that category.

Tenebrarum wrote:: Yes, but it doesn't work that way in practice. If you have a bunch of seats than a bunch of people can sit in it.

Yes, but this is about the way the people travel. It is more of a cultural resource than a technological one. Does that make sense? I mean, it wasn't always that you could get places without having your own vehicle, was it?

And i will rename Advanced Lock.

Subject: Re: Extended Research List Wed Dec 01, 2010 5:06 pm

US_of_Alaska wrote:

Tenebrarum wrote:: Well, the difference is tech, isn't it? We've got rockets, and we've got missiles.

I've always thought of missiles and rockets as the same thing. There's missiles nd Guided Missiles, as far as i'm concerned. Why can't they be Function Parts? I've always thought they fit best into that category.

Okay, I really don't know. I was trying to direct you to the links. All my point is, is that that sorta rocketything should pop up fairly early. I don't know ANYTHING about modern rocketry.

US_of_Alaska wrote:: Yes, but this is about the way the people travel. It is more of a cultural resource than a technological one. Does that make sense? I mean, it wasn't always that you could get places without having your own vehicle, was it?

I understand, but as soon as the two options exist, than the cultural situation changes. i.e.: If it's possible for the majority of the population to own personal transport vehicles, (If they're cheap enough.) and it's also possible for the majority to rely on mass transit, than the cultural option is available.

P.S. Artillery means any projectile weapon that is too large to be held by one person when firing. A Roman Scorpian, Greek Gastrophateses(sp?), Modern Artillery Gun, Medeival Feild Cannon, Espringal, Mangon, and Hwacha all fall under the definition. All the research needs is a good name.

Subject: Re: Extended Research List Wed Dec 01, 2010 6:56 pm

US_of_Alaska wrote:: We still haven't been able to come up with what it was that made the difference between a cannon and an Artillery. I am really not well read in this guys, so i have no clue. But Rex knows cannons, and Keen, you know artillery (i gather) so surely you two can figure out what the best name for this research is. I'm counting on you for this guys.

As Rex said, artillery is any ranged support weapon, be it ballista, hwacha, cannon, muiltiple launch rocket system, etc. The real revolution was caused by introducing indirect fire and training crew how to employ it.

US_of_Alaska wrote:: Also, i'm not happy with the name Indirect Warfare, as that to me seems like more of a cultural research, and how a war is fought. It would be like having a research for Trench or Mechanised Warfare.

I thought so. Those are horrible names, but the change was caused more by invention of the new tactic than a technological change.

US_of_Alaska wrote:: I've always thought of missiles and rockets as the same thing. There's missiles nd Guided Missiles, as far as i'm concerned.

It used to be like that, but it isn't anymore. It was replaced by the word projectile.

US_of_Alaska wrote:: Why can't they be Function Parts? I've always thought they fit best into that category.

The problem is that there are lots of different kinds of guiding and warheads that have really huge impact on the missile. Basically the same case as with engines, unless we want to have an assload of FPs or omit them all, missiles will have to be TOs.

Subject: Re: Extended Research List Wed Dec 01, 2010 7:11 pm

Commander Keen wrote:

US_of_Alaska wrote:: We still haven't been able to come up with what it was that made the difference between a cannon and an Artillery. I am really not well read in this guys, so i have no clue. But Rex knows cannons, and Keen, you know artillery (i gather) so surely you two can figure out what the best name for this research is. I'm counting on you for this guys.

As Rex said, artillery is any ranged support weapon, be it ballista, hwacha, cannon, muiltiple launch rocket system, etc. The real revolution was caused by introducing indirect fire and training crew how to employ it.

Wait, hold on. What do you mean by training the crew? Are we implying that the seige-gun crew were untrained?

Subject: Re: Extended Research List Thu Dec 02, 2010 11:09 am

Tenebrarum wrote:: Wait, hold on. What do you mean by training the crew? Are we implying that the seige-gun crew were untrained?

No, I mean training of indirect fire. Crew of artillery were mostly trained through the whole history, but they still needed a line of sight on their target.

Subject: Re: Extended Research List Thu Dec 02, 2010 4:23 pm

Commander Keen wrote:

Tenebrarum wrote:: Wait, hold on. What do you mean by training the crew? Are we implying that the seige-gun crew were untrained?

No, I mean training of indirect fire. Crew of artillery were mostly trained through the whole history, but they still needed a line of sight on their target.

Got it. Like medeival employment of military mathmeticians!

Okay, how about we merely call it Indirect Fire (I hate the term "Fire." It evolved from gunners calling for matchbarers to light the powder, and so it just feels weird to use it, the same way we're not using the term Elizabethan Compromise but instead 'Free Church.' I wish there were a better name, but there isn't for this, so feh.)

Also, check the thread on clothing(TE subforum). I made a longpost there, and until I get responces I don't know whether or not to spam my clothing research ideas.

Subject: Re: Extended Research List Thu Dec 02, 2010 5:42 pm

Tenebrarum wrote:: Okay, how about we merely call it Indirect Fire

We could, but I still think there has to be a better name somewhere.

Tenebrarum wrote:: (I hate the term "Fire." It evolved from gunners calling for matchbarers to light the powder, and so it just feels weird to use it, the same way we're not using the term Elizabethan Compromise but instead 'Free Church.' I wish there were a better name, but there isn't for this, so feh.)

Well, I can offer you a few (Czech :P) alternatives..

Tenebrarum wrote:: Also, check the thread on clothing(TE subforum). I made a longpost there, and until I get responces I don't know whether or not to spam my clothing research ideas.

Completly missed it yesterday, but taking a look now. Looks interesting.

Subject: Re: Extended Research List Thu Dec 02, 2010 5:50 pm

Commander Keen wrote:: Well, I can offer you a few (Czech :P) alternatives..

To use the medeival alternative: Let Loose!

Commander Keen wrote:: Completly missed it yesterday, but taking a look now. Looks interesting.

Yay! ^^

Subject: Re: Extended Research List Thu Dec 02, 2010 5:55 pm

Tenebrarum wrote:: To use the medeival alternative: Let Loose!

I'll stick with Pal! (Czech alternative of fire).

Subject: Re: Extended Research List Thu Dec 02, 2010 6:07 pm

You guys are starting to make me think there should be no research for this, as the player can order his units to fire where they can't see at any point in history if they so choose.

Subject: Re: Extended Research List Thu Dec 02, 2010 6:19 pm

US_of_Alaska wrote:: You guys are starting to make me think there should be no research for this, as the player can order his units to fire where they can't see at any point in history if they so choose.

But they'd never hit until now.

Subject: Re: Extended Research List Thu Dec 02, 2010 6:32 pm

Tenebrarum wrote:: But they'd never hit until now.

Exactly. It's like ordering a tank to fire at a Jumbo Jet 10km above ground. It has the range, but you have roughly 100% chance to miss.

Subject: Re: Extended Research List Fri Dec 03, 2010 11:34 pm

Then what was it that made them be able to hit?!? Better physics knowledge? More powerful explosives? Simply more men on the battlefield?

Subject: Re: Extended Research List Sat Dec 04, 2010 8:35 am

US_of_Alaska wrote:: Then what was it that made them be able to hit?!? Better physics knowledge? More powerful explosives? Simply more men on the battlefield?

The thing was more accurate aiming. To be more specific, it was a complex mathematical set to get wanted latitude and longitude of firing, and recon teams to tell the artillery crew where the enemy is, therefore where to aim (this also introduced better coordinates on military maps, that later got into civilian as well). This all happened in about 20-30 years.

Subject: Re: Extended Research List Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:53 am

How about (like Alaska said) to not use it as a research but simply as a game mechanic that is unlocked by Latitude and Longitude. E.g. You have a cannon and are sieging a castle. Because you do not have line of sight, the castles exact location is clouded and black. If you have unlocked cartography (or whatever it's called), you know where the castle is even if you do not have line of sight.

Subject: Re: Extended Research List Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:50 pm

2creator wrote:: How about (like Alaska said) to not use it as a research but simply as a game mechanic that is unlocked by Latitude and Longitude. E.g. You have a cannon and are sieging a castle. Because you do not have line of sight, the castles exact location is clouded and black. If you have unlocked cartography (or whatever it's called), you know where the castle is even if you do not have line of sight.

The problem here is that Cartography is much simpler (and thus researched way earlier) than Indirect fire.

I don't see a problem with researching it, as it was done this way here on Earth.

Subject: Re: Extended Research List Sat Dec 04, 2010 5:43 pm

US_of_Alaska wrote:: Without fire, you cannot have any metal-working technologies. Without fire, your species will always be stuck in the Stone Age (at least physically, their society might be modern or even ultramodern).

A thought for the underwaters: there are very hot underwater vents and volcanoes (and the volcanoes are definitely hot enough to melt metal) though except in the case of extremely thermophilic organisms, I'm not sure how they could be realistically approached. But the vents could potentially allow a way around fire for lower-temperature chemistry things.

Subject: Re: Extended Research List Sat Dec 04, 2010 5:55 pm

Mysterious_Calligrapher wrote:

US_of_Alaska wrote:: Without fire, you cannot have any metal-working technologies. Without fire, your species will always be stuck in the Stone Age (at least physically, their society might be modern or even ultramodern).

A thought for the underwaters: there are very hot underwater vents and volcanoes (and the volcanoes are definitely hot enough to melt metal) though except in the case of extremely thermophilic organisms, I'm not sure how they could be realistically approached. But the vents could potentially allow a way around fire for lower-temperature chemistry things.

RedStar did the math. You can't safely get close enough to the volcanos and the vents aren't hot enough.

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