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 Tech Paths

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Darkgamma
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PostSubject: Tech Paths   Sun Nov 21, 2010 11:52 am

Basically, towards what will the species' tech be geared. First example that comes to mind is the usual Sci-Fi's mild cyberpunk, but there are other things, as well (think biopunk). Basically, I want to state that there should be more than one predetermined path in technology. We (the players) need to decide on our favourite tech, compare the pros to the cons, and go with it. If possible, be given the option to combine technology paths, but be mainly one or the other, not both equally (think biopunk with mild cyberpunk elements).
What'ya think?
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Tenebrarum
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PostSubject: Re: Tech Paths   Sun Nov 21, 2010 1:00 pm

I'll be honest: DO WANT

The issue is that we want to stick to realism, and as such the only comparison we have is ourselves.
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PostSubject: Re: Tech Paths   Sun Nov 21, 2010 1:14 pm

Wait, though...wouldn't we be able to do all this with the tech editor?
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PostSubject: Re: Tech Paths   Sun Nov 21, 2010 2:28 pm

Seeing our massive research tree and practically infinite possibilities with Tech editor, I think this is already possible with the current concept. It's on the player to do it his way.
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PostSubject: Re: Tech Paths   Sun Nov 21, 2010 4:11 pm

I have an idea!

If you research something on the tech tree, certain things could have a timer.

Bear with me... I'm not trying to doom us all.

Now, these timers, they are slow, but there. Now, once you research a tech, the timer starts, and so you have until the timer runs out to research things that come off that tech. The timers are slow remember, we don't want this to become a race. Now, if you don't research the tech before the timer runs out, the tech becomes 'outdated'. It doesn't have to be a timer, some techs would run out when the player researches another tech.

This, of course, wouldn't apply to things like fishing, only things like... Hang on, I'll give some real life examples.

Timer: Most modern day trends, ones that come and go, like... Makeover programs, reality TV, stuff like that, that you just 'do' because people are doing it. It keeps people's attention for a few years, then gets boring. I'm really, really looking forward to when people get bored of Big brother and X factor.

When tech X is researched: A good example is cars, when some sort of health and safety is researched.
If someone invented a box that would be filled with a highly flammable substance that would be burnt and transported you, and had a scarily high risk of crashes, nowadays, people would not allow it with todays incredible, health and safety.

Slavery could come around after equal rights
No religion (cutting off a whole section of the tech tree) after science

There are more examples, I can't think of any right now.


If we find enough techs in the tree that appear to have these 'tech timers' in reality, and implement them into the tree, you could end up with civilisations that get areas of the tree closed off, or techs skipped.

What do you think?
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PostSubject: Re: Tech Paths   Sun Nov 21, 2010 7:38 pm

The Uteen wrote:
I have an idea!

If you research something on the tech tree, certain things could have a timer.

Bear with me... I'm not trying to doom us all.

Now, these timers, they are slow, but there. Now, once you research a tech, the timer starts, and so you have until the timer runs out to research things that come off that tech. The timers are slow remember, we don't want this to become a race. Now, if you don't research the tech before the timer runs out, the tech becomes 'outdated'. It doesn't have to be a timer, some techs would run out when the player researches another tech.

This, of course, wouldn't apply to things like fishing, only things like... Hang on, I'll give some real life examples.

Timer: Most modern day trends, ones that come and go, like... Makeover programs, reality TV, stuff like that, that you just 'do' because people are doing it. It keeps people's attention for a few years, then gets boring. I'm really, really looking forward to when people get bored of Big brother and X factor.

When tech X is researched: A good example is cars, when some sort of health and safety is researched.
If someone invented a box that would be filled with a highly flammable substance that would be burnt and transported you, and had a scarily high risk of crashes, nowadays, people would not allow it with todays incredible, health and safety.

Slavery could come around after equal rights
No religion (cutting off a whole section of the tech tree) after science

There are more examples, I can't think of any right now.


If we find enough techs in the tree that appear to have these 'tech timers' in reality, and implement them into the tree, you could end up with civilisations that get areas of the tree closed off, or techs skipped.

What do you think?
I don't really see why we should apply it, although it doesn't sound too bad- in real life, you can research anything at any time.

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Darkgamma
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PostSubject: Re: Tech Paths   Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:39 am

~sciocont wrote:
The Uteen wrote:
stuff
I don't really see why we should apply it, although it doesn't sound too bad- in real life, you can research anything at any time.

You can, but you will financially fail in a way so miserable because it just won't be used.
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The Uteen
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PostSubject: Re: Tech Paths   Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:10 pm

Darkgamma wrote:
~sciocont wrote:
The Uteen wrote:
stuff
I don't really see why we should apply it, although it doesn't sound too bad- in real life, you can research anything at any time.

You can, but you will financially fail in a way so miserable because it just won't be used.
And you would see anyone now inventing something that is a very good invention, but is outdated by centuries, like... I have another example:

You would not research the abacus after the calculator.

On the tech tree, do we have any actual 'trends' that, in reality, go in and out of fashion? If not, maybe the timer wasn't so practical... But 'not after X tech' is good, we really don't want an abacus after a calculator.
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PostSubject: Re: Tech Paths   Mon Nov 22, 2010 4:21 pm

Timers seem a little off topic. Please make a thread to discuss.

Mainly I say this because I do want to talk about the OP. How will we simulate different styles of technology? Will there be races that become very skilled in, say, biochemistry instead of plastics and metalwork? As in, industrial revolution replacement?
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Commander Keen
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PostSubject: Re: Tech Paths   Mon Nov 22, 2010 5:02 pm

Tenebrarum wrote:
Mainly I say this because I do want to talk about the OP. How will we simulate different styles of technology? Will there be races that become very skilled in, say, biochemistry instead of plastics and metalwork? As in, industrial revolution replacement?

Well, you can specialise on some techs by leveling them up, but that won't cover some researches replacing others. Could you tell me how could biochemistry replace industrial revolution?
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Tenebrarum
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PostSubject: Re: Tech Paths   Mon Nov 22, 2010 5:12 pm

Commander Keen wrote:
Tenebrarum wrote:
Mainly I say this because I do want to talk about the OP. How will we simulate different styles of technology? Will there be races that become very skilled in, say, biochemistry instead of plastics and metalwork? As in, industrial revolution replacement?

Well, you can specialise on some techs by leveling them up, but that won't cover some researches replacing others. Could you tell me how could biochemistry replace industrial revolution?

First off. No leveling. Effectivity is determined by other researches. We have discussed this.

Secondly: Picture a world that is metalic-poor, but rich in organics. Over the years, extensive experimentation with these (Similer to alchemy) leads to fascinating chemical reactions which produce, say, silicoidal structures that can be "grown" to create structures. Such technology would take time for us, but in a organic rich world they might figure it out far earlier.
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PostSubject: Re: Tech Paths   Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:31 am

Tenebrarum wrote:
First off. No leveling. Effectivity is determined by other researches. We have discussed this.

Can you point me to where we disscused it? I know there was a topic that ended into levels not being able to
unlock FPs or other researches, but I can't remember anything about dismissing levels at all (other than oce every two Alaska's posts in the research tree thread).

Tenebrarum wrote:
Secondly: Picture a world that is metalic-poor, but rich in organics. Over the years, extensive experimentation with these (Similer to alchemy) leads to fascinating chemical reactions which produce, say, silicoidal structures that can be "grown" to create structures. Such technology would take time for us, but in a organic rich world they might figure it out far earlier.

Altough I doubt these could fully replace industrial revolution, they might be a good alternative. Definitely needs to be in the game.
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US_of_Alaska
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PostSubject: Re: Tech Paths   Thu Nov 25, 2010 1:44 am

We've never really decided. And i must say, lately i've been inclined to see leveling up included. There would however, be no gameplay function for it. It would operate strictly behind the scenes, improving FPs and changing the aesthetics of new FPs slightly. I think that my research list thread is fine for discussing the possibilities of levels.
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GmansWatching
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PostSubject: Re: Tech Paths   Sun Aug 12, 2012 9:23 pm

[/quote] And you would see anyone now inventing something that is a very good invention, but is outdated by centuries, like... I have another example:

You would not research the abacus after the calculator.

On the tech tree, do we have any actual 'trends' that, in reality, go in and out of fashion? If not, maybe the timer wasn't so practical... But 'not after X tech' is good, we really don't want an abacus after a calculator. [/quote]

So for the tech tree, if you forget to research something like stone weapons, but you somehow get swords or guns it should cancel out outdated tech.
Another idea is some tech counters others, and whichever you choose will affect your political views, religion, etc.
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PostSubject: Re: Tech Paths   Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:02 pm

Okay, so some idea for tech paths that could be developed. Most of these I got from thinking about the properties of atoms (mass, electron movement, electron spins, bonding, etc)

Kinetic, electricity, magnetism, optics, inorganic chemistry, organic chemistry. I guess those can be the base research areas.

And also some different research focuses. (focuses can be defined as what is being improved)
Weapons, armor, production, engines, sensors, maybe a few others too.

For researching and unlocking tech, you can pick a tech path and the area that you want to research.
I.E. research kinetic armor, optic weapons, organic production, magnetic armor.

Researching improves the tech score of that area, and will significantly* improve the focus score on the research focus, and a little bit for other focuses. *( significantly just means more than the other focuses)

Additionally once tech scores of certain areas are past a certain point, more research areas are unlocked. These can be considered second tier areas. Research in second tier areas can unlock 3rd tiers by a similar method

So here's a draft of what I was thinking of and short bits of components that can be unlocked/improved in parenthesis (which is not everything, I'm just giving a few examples to give you an idea of what I'm talking about)

--Tier 1--

Kinetic: (plate armor, standard kinetic weapons)
Electricity: (shock based weapons)
Magnetism: (shields)
Optics: (lasers)
Chemistry: (missiles, reactive armor)

--Tier 2--

Plasma = Kinetic + Magnetism (plasma weapons, improved shields)
Biological = Kinetic + Chemistry (biological production, environmental manipulation)
Antimatter =Electricity + magnetism (antimatter weapons, engines)
Meta-materials = Electricity + Optics (invisibility)
Nano materials = Optics + Chemistry (production improvements, weapons that can slowly dismantle enemy ships)

--Tier 3--

Nano-Biology= Biological + Nano-materials (improved production, can alter unfavorable planets to be better suited, or vice-versa)
Phase = Plasma + Meta-materials (short-range teleportation, space-time manipulation)
Dark Energy = Antimatter + Nano-materials (creation of micro-anomalies as an offensive or defensive measure)
Super-biology = biological + meta-materials (can create biological entities that can survive super-extreme environments, unlocks biological ships)
Fusion = Plasma + antimatter (fusion energy, fusion weapons)













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Silver Sterling
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PostSubject: Re: Tech Paths   Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:45 pm

Keep in mind, that it shoudn't be to linear. I had the same problem by the material storming a day before.
Its planned to give the player so many possibilities in development how possible. So we shoudn't try to get tech tiers, more technologies who build up on each others, but we can try to develop other, technologies who aren't, from beginning. Possible restrict it a bit by the intelligence of the creature.

A actually have looked in this as the example of the space engines and have also posted something about them:

Spoiler:
 

Think the best way would be to be able to develop all different technologies further, not yust simple have them as step between. So people can choose what of this technologies they want to use. Letting out some technologies who aren't essential to develop a more advanced technology, shouldn't be forced to be developed earlier.

Short: Tech tree where needed (if the technologies build on themselfs), but so few trees how possible.
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PostSubject: Re: Tech Paths   Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:55 pm

Silver Sterling wrote:
Keep in mind, that it shoudn't be to linear. I had the same problem by the material storming a day before.

Spoiler:
 

Short: Tech tree where needed (if the technologies build on themselfs), but so few trees how possible.

I completely agree with what you're saying. I should have elaborated more, but I was worried my post was already becoming a wall of text.

The idea I had is not linear, nor should it be. The idea was to have it be radial, moving outward from the center of the circle. The player can choose any amount of directions to explore. And moving outward unlocks new areas of research as the circle gets bigger. The tier system was more of how far away from the circle that area of research was. It was not to say that once the player researched up to a certain point, they wouldn't be able to research lower tiers further.
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Silver Sterling
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PostSubject: Re: Tech Paths   Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:20 pm

Indeedy, that sounds like a system i would endorse aswell. We woudn't be able to develop anything to advanced from start, but should be able to develop so many ground technologies and things how logical possible and should be also theoretical be possible to develop a specific technology also if its more advanced (but not to far advanced) without any ones before. Possible that it would take some time then and woudn't be so productive like yust develop steps between with earlier technologies.
A radial tech tree seems to be a nice image for it.

Only question is, at what point is it to complex to be programmed.
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PostSubject: Re: Tech Paths   Fri Sep 28, 2012 11:49 pm

Silver Sterling wrote:
Indeedy, that sounds like a system i would endorse aswell. We woudn't be able to develop anything to advanced from start, but should be able to develop so many ground technologies and things how logical possible and should be also theoretical be possible to develop a specific technology also if its more advanced (but not to far advanced) without any ones before. Possible that it would take some time then and woudn't be so productive like yust develop steps between with earlier technologies.
A radial tech tree seems to be a nice image for it.

Only question is, at what point is it to complex to be programmed.

That's what I contemplating about my system as well. I would definitely want it to be as simple to compute as possible, while at the same time providing a massive amount of options for the player. But at some point there has to be a balance. I think with this method, there is a way to "cheat" so to speak, where the computations are actually less complicated than what the player thinks they are. If each system only had a set collection of stats, research could modify the stats, and the type. The type would affect the animations, which puts more work on the artists, and memory taken by the system for the amount of images/animations that needed to be loaded into memory. My thought was at the beginning there would be set animations, later ones can be different colors or particle animations, and the really high tech options were just modifiers, and wouldn't need there own animations.

I think it would also be really cool if the player's could not see what lay further down the tech tree, but rather unlocked stuff as they went, in a sense laying down that realism in that we don't know what new technologies may be around much later.

I would also love for more people to contribute to new ideas for technologies, because radially there should always be a spot for something. It's just at some point we'll have to decide on if it would fit, how it would impact game play, and coding difficulties. I also think having a player going through the first time being like, wow! this is awesome! And really enjoying whatever tech path they chose. But I'm just one person and tend to focus on one side, so feedback would be crucial in helping to balance it out.
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The Uteen
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PostSubject: Re: Tech Paths   Sat Sep 29, 2012 10:18 am

We already have a very large research web, and various related topics. If you have ideas for research, it would be preferable if we don't have to redo all our our concepts so far, so make sure you've taken a look at our current concepts before making suggestions.
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PostSubject: Re: Tech Paths   Sat Sep 29, 2012 11:04 am

gdt1320 wrote:
That's what I contemplating about my system as well. I would definitely want it to be as simple to compute as possible, while at the same time providing a massive amount of options for the player. But at some point there has to be a balance. I think with this method, there is a way to "cheat" so to speak, where the computations are actually less complicated than what the player thinks they are. If each system only had a set collection of stats, research could modify the stats, and the type. The type would affect the animations, which puts more work on the artists, and memory taken by the system for the amount of images/animations that needed to be loaded into memory. My thought was at the beginning there would be set animations, later ones can be different colors or particle animations, and the really high tech options were just modifiers, and wouldn't need there own animations.
Thats what i tought aswell. As the example for the rocket engines. We could develop such systems and can develop every different engine concept further. So we could in one way have spaceships who have plasma ion engines and would fly like the typical "Nexus: The Jupiter Incident" ships. We have thrusters on it, and a main engine, it will manover slowly, the trusters would be firing visibly and the whole thing would give a more primitive look, but should give some advances in the early stages and woudn't need so much energy.

Then as example the gravimetric engines, this thing should be able to have more as one field generators, who create different gravimetric fields, who will pull the ship in different directions to manover. You woudn't see any thrusters on it and it will move silently around. But would need a better understanding in electromagnetic technologies and could lead to faster then light engines, what would make the traveling way faster as with a generation or cryonic ships.

You should also be able to mix this ideas. As example a ship with both types of engines who can trust around and only needs one gravimetric generator, and a ship with only gravimetric engines would have to need more as one to turn around.

Because of how the tech editor works, where you can put parts on one vehicle, it should be possible to something like this, if we have the technologies in.

Intresting would be also the balancing about this things.

As example, a typical chemical rocket [active fuel] (the propellant could differ with the different tech stages could have a very high output and if you put antimatter and matter tough it in the later time of the games they should be able to accelerate extremly, but it will burn the fuel very fast.

The heat or the ion/plasma versions [hybrid] should be a step between. You have and engine who is very economic and has a good trust. You wouldn't be able to get a good performance out of it in the beginning, then it could get really well and can be powered by a reactor.

The gravimetric engines [reactor power] should be a very late game part, you can use it earlier, but it will need a very high developed technology to go really fast, but will need lots of energy to be powered and would need no own fuel, yust the power of the reactor.
Only problem i see here is how to make it possible that everything is balanced correctory. Eventually we could make the Warp System like a kind of wave rider. The ship goes to high speed and will create a gravimetric riding wave, who will strech the space in front of it. This woudn't necessarily work with a normal gravimetric generator, who would create the field around the ship and shift it with the field. Then its up to the player what type of engine he would prefer.

Thats actually the idea how i would like to see it ingame.
It would give different technological trees we can develop independently.
Could also work in other areas and the technologies would use same states who can developed. So you develop it further, it gets better states, how you mentioned aswell. The player would be able to keep his beloved technology and don't have to switch to another one, to stay competitive.

[quote"gdt1320"]I think it would also be really cool if the player's could not see what lay further down the tech tree, but rather unlocked stuff as they went, in a sense laying down that realism in that we don't know what new technologies may be around much later. [/quote]
Yes, we should be able to see in a specific direction, like what the creature can imagine what could be possible. If he gets confronted with technology beyond his understanding, he should think about it like magic. If he make some testing and calculation, he will discover specific things about it and then get some ideas. Electromagnetic fields as example. If he don't know anything about this, he woudn't have any ideas how to threaten with it. But when he gets into this topic, he should see how it interacts with certain objects, etc. So he gets ideas and you can develop from this point.

The Uteen wrote:
We already have a very large research web, and various related topics. If you have ideas for research, it would be preferable if we don't have to redo all our our concepts so far, so make sure you've taken a look at our current concepts before making suggestions. Wink
Ah, there is the research web, have seached for it and wasn't able to find it anymore. Thx for posting it.
Well yea, reworking it. It stops at the point our discussion starts. And how it should work is something what was mentioned before also from NickTheNick and i we only endorse it.

The Space area hasn't been developed so much, but this is fully understandable, because its the last stage. Also a hobby from me, i already tought about space engines. The Zero Point Energy would possible work like the Dark Matter and is the background energy, only that we know more about this energy as about dark matter. Ok, there are already some rumors that the energy should be usable in the next years, but this would make the game a bit to easy i think. Or we could possible make it more difficult to get one with a high enough power output.

Quote :
Q. How does the player produce Research Points?
A. The player can produce Research Points towards Researches or Inventions associated with different Tech Objects by using said Tech Objects. More hardcore players may also wish to select what areas the Researcher Specialist of each Society Centre focuses on, thus producing Research Points to a specific area. If not told selected, the Researchers will focus on the Researches that the player uses the most. Research Points can also be acquired by encountering technology that uses a Research that is not yet discovered by your nation. Prior to the creation of Society Centres, the player can select individual people and order them to examine certain resources, Tech Objects or themselves, giving Research Points to the associated areas.
Yes, indeed this sounds all like the idea we got aswell. Good to read that we are pulling all on the same cord.
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