Extended Research List

US_of_Alaska wrote:

That still doesn't help with our Free Church problem.

Yes it does. It creates a societal research to stick in there. Also, it represents critters realizing, if not nessicarily implementing, the idea that things can function well when seperate even if they are not directly at odds with eachother.

they did it because the empire became too large to rule (the comunication would be slow and things would take too much) and for other political and social reasons.

Tenebrarum wrote:

US_of_Alaska wrote:

That still doesn't help with our Free Church problem.

Yes it does. It creates a societal research to stick in there. Also, it represents critters realizing, if not nessicarily implementing, the idea that things can function well when seperate even if they are not directly at odds with eachother.

Okay. That makes perfect sense. Brilliant. So Code of Laws and Aristocracy.

And i think that it should also allow one capital per head of state, if the player so wishes. It also probably needs a different name if it is allowing "multiple heads of state" instead of two. I'll add it to the list, though, name pending.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

Tenebrarum wrote:

US_of_Alaska wrote:

That still doesn't help with our Free Church problem.

Yes it does. It creates a societal research to stick in there. Also, it represents critters realizing, if not nessicarily implementing, the idea that things can function well when seperate even if they are not directly at odds with eachother.

Okay. That makes perfect sense. Brilliant. So Code of Laws and Aristocracy.

And i think that it should also allow one capital per head of state, if the player so wishes. It also probably needs a different name if it is allowing "multiple heads of state" instead of two. I'll add it to the list, though, name pending.

Howsabout Oligarchy?

Tenebrarum wrote:

US_of_Alaska wrote:

Tenebrarum wrote:

US_of_Alaska wrote:

That still doesn't help with our Free Church problem.

Yes it does. It creates a societal research to stick in there. Also, it represents critters realizing, if not nessicarily implementing, the idea that things can function well when seperate even if they are not directly at odds with eachother.

Okay. That makes perfect sense. Brilliant. So Code of Laws and Aristocracy.

And i think that it should also allow one capital per head of state, if the player so wishes. It also probably needs a different name if it is allowing "multiple heads of state" instead of two. I'll add it to the list, though, name pending.

Howsabout Oligarchy?

PERFECT! Brilliant work today, Rex.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

PERFECT! Brilliant work today, Rex.

D'aaaaawww.... Thanks! ^^

Now for the religious one... :S

Tenebrarum wrote:

US_of_Alaska wrote:

PERFECT! Brilliant work today, Rex.

D'aaaaawww.... Thanks! ^^

Now for the religious one... :S

That may be tricky. Because nothing religious happened between Philosophy and Theology, did it? That's basically between the rise of the Romans and Christianity.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

Tenebrarum wrote:

US_of_Alaska wrote:

PERFECT! Brilliant work today, Rex.

D'aaaaawww.... Thanks! ^^

Now for the religious one... :S

That may be tricky. Because nothing religious happened between Philosophy and Theology, did it? That's basically between the rise of the Romans and Christianity.

No big changes. Maybe Philosophy and Oligarchy are good enough?

Okay. Well, between the 3rd century BC and the 3rd century AD, there was little that happened religiously in the West. But in India the first real attempt to accept pacifism as a state doctrine was instigated by Ashoka the Great. State Pacifism could be a religious research, right? It'd come off Philosophy.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

Okay. Well, between the 3rd century BC and the 3rd century AD, there was little that happened religiously in the West. But in India the first real attempt to accept pacifism as a state doctrine was instigated by Ashoka the Great. State Pacifism could be a religious research, right? It'd come off Philosophy.

Sure, but it doesn't really connect well with Free Church. Hmmmm.....

Tenebrarum wrote:

US_of_Alaska wrote:

Okay. Well, between the 3rd century BC and the 3rd century AD, there was little that happened religiously in the West. But in India the first real attempt to accept pacifism as a state doctrine was instigated by Ashoka the Great. State Pacifism could be a religious research, right? It'd come off Philosophy.

Sure, but it doesn't really connect well with Free Church. Hmmmm...

Yeah, that's true. Maybe we'll just go with Oligarchy and Philosophy for the Free Church research. I think it's reasonable.

Oh yeah! Btw, Naval Warfare has 'Archery' as a prerequisit.

Tenebrarum wrote:

Oh yeah! Btw, Naval Warfare has 'Archery' as a prerequisit.

Whoops. Must have been before i changed the name to be more ambiguous. Willfix.

New version of the Research List is up. No new researches just yet, but many things have been fixed and adjusted. Also, there is an new column called "Triggers" which will hold all the things that add research points to the research that are not science specialists or buildings. This column is still in its infancy, so suggestions are welcome.

Triggers are a great way to implement what we discussed. Great job mate!

Alot of them should be obvious. Boating = Swimming, Stone Knapping = Use of stone, and so on.

You forgot to edit guilds appropriately though.

Tenebrarum wrote:

Triggers are a great way to implement what we discussed. Great job mate!

Alot of them should be obvious. Boating = Swimming, Stone Knapping = Use of stone, and so on.

You forgot to edit guilds appropriately though.

Sorry, it's a lot to get through. Willfix.

EDIT: New link is up with fixes and new triggers.

Oral Tradition should unlock 'Depictions' in the Decoration tab.

Digging should trigger mining.

Resource surplus should trigger trade.

Chariots I assume will function as carts as well? In that case than contruction and trade should speed up the research.

Caste system should enable creation of castes in Nation editor.

Mathamatics is triggered by trading

Glass is triggered by use of sand

Calender is triggered by seasonal changes.

Aristocracy is triggered by use of multiple castes

City Planning is triggered by having large, sprawling SCs.

Canal Systems are triggered by use of boats.

Theology is triggered by large religions.

Wheather Lore is triggered by lots of agriculture, and seasonal changes.

Agricultural Tools is triggered by lots of Argiculture

Guilds should also enable the 'one establishment per person' rule. Not nessicarily attached to Guild Council rule.

Architechture is triggered by use of decoration tab, and lots of buildings.

You forgot to add the changes to chivalry we discussed.

Optics is also triggered by use of boats/sailing

Anatomy is triggered by... how do I put ths... The game would see it as 'playing' with one of your species' corpses.

Astronomy is triggered by the use of optics at the heavenly bodies. (Unobstructed veiw nessicary)

Printing is triggered by use of paper and high litteracy rates

Alphabet shouldn't require sight as dominent sense. Alphabets can be slightly altered to function for touch, sonar, and smell/taste. It is presumed that your creature would have at least ONE of these senses. Also, change it to "Complex Writing" or something to allow the other writing systems to function.

Why does currency require metal casting? The Mali used Cowri Shells, others have used yams, buckskins, so on and so forth.

Sailing should be unlocked with Boating and Weaving OR Boating and Hunting Tools(Leather sails). Also, it should unlock steering oars as a FP. Boating should unlock oars as an FP. Unless we're making a distinction between oars and paddles, in which case I'm cool with that. Still need a steering oar though.

Aristocracy should allow certain castes to be designated as 'superior' to other castes in the Nation Editor.

Agriculture should allow a grainery TO.

Agricultural Tools should allow Wind Mill Grinder FP and Animal Powered Grinder FP.

Tenebrarum wrote:

Oral Tradition should unlock 'Depictions' in the Decoration tab.

Yeah, meant to do that.

Tenebrarum wrote:

Digging should trigger mining.

Willadd.

Tenebrarum wrote:

Resource surplus should trigger trade.

Good idea.

Tenebrarum wrote:

Chariots I assume will function as carts as well? In that case than contruction and trade should speed up the research.

I think carts would be gained from The Wheel, not Chariots.

Tenebrarum wrote:

Caste system should enable creation of castes in Nation editor.

We have castes in the Nation Editor? I was just putting this down to being represented by being able to assign specialists however they want.

Tenebrarum wrote:

Mathamatics is triggered by trading

Makes sense.

Tenebrarum wrote:

Glass is triggered by use of sand

Makes sense.

Tenebrarum wrote:

Calender is triggered by seasonal changes.

It's not really good enough to just say it's triggered by seasonal changes, else the player isn't doing anything.

Tenebrarum wrote:

Aristocracy is triggered by use of multiple castes

See caste problem above.

Tenebrarum wrote:

City Planning is triggered by having large, sprawling SCs.

Makes sense.

Tenebrarum wrote:

Canal Systems are triggered by use of boats.

Not entirely sense making. I think use of Irrigation Canals would lead to this more appropriately.

Tenebrarum wrote:

Theology is triggered by large religions.

Okay.

Tenebrarum wrote:

Weather Lore is triggered by lots of agriculture, and seasonal changes.

Lots of agriculture makes sense. And see calendar for the seasonal changes thing.

Tenebrarum wrote:

Agricultural Tools is triggered by lots of Argiculture

Makes sense.

Tenebrarum wrote:

Guilds should also enable the 'one establishment per person' rule. Not nessicarily attached to Guild Council rule.

Okay. That's a good fix.

Tenebrarum wrote:

Architecture is triggered by use of decoration tab, and lots of buildings.

Good idea.

Tenebrarum wrote:

You forgot to add the changes to chivalry we discussed.

Whoops.

Tenebrarum wrote:

Optics is also triggered by use of boats/sailing

That would be covered by "Exploration", no?

Tenebrarum wrote:

Anatomy is triggered by... how do I put ths... The game would see it as 'playing' with one of your species' corpses.

Primitive autopsy-like stuff would definitely add to this.

Tenebrarum wrote:

Astronomy is triggered by the use of optics at the heavenly bodies. (Unobstructed veiw nessicary)

Makes sense.

Tenebrarum wrote:

Printing is triggered by use of paper and high litteracy rates

How will the game know that you have high literacy rates?

Tenebrarum wrote:

Alphabet shouldn't require sight as dominent sense. Alphabets can be slightly altered to function for touch, sonar, and smell/taste. It is presumed that your creature would have at least ONE of these senses. Also, change it to "Complex Writing" or something to allow the other writing systems to function.

I thought i changed alphabet, didn't i? Never mind, i've fixed it now.

Tenebrarum wrote:

Why does currency require metal casting? The Mali used Cowri Shells, others have used yams, buckskins, so on and so forth.

I guess that's true, but what do we put as an alternate? Mathematics? Trade?

Tenebrarum wrote:

Sailing should be unlocked with Boating and Weaving OR Boating and Hunting Tools(Leather sails). Also, it should unlock steering oars as a FP. Boating should unlock oars as an FP. Unless we're making a distinction between oars and paddles, in which case I'm cool with that. Still need a steering oar though.

I forgot about the leather sails thing. Willfix. So boating unlocks oars and sailing unlocks a rudder thing, right?

Tenebrarum wrote:

Aristocracy should allow certain castes to be designated as 'superior' to other castes in the Nation Editor.

Caste argument.

Tenebrarum wrote:

Agriculture should allow a grainery TO.

No deal. This would just be a Storage TO that is filled with grain.

Tenebrarum wrote:

Agricultural Tools should allow Wind Mill Grinder FP and Animal Powered Grinder FP.

I think a single grinder is better, is it not? That would allow you to connect to an animal or a windmill or whatever the hell you want to.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

We have castes in the Nation Editor? I was just putting this down to being represented by being able to assign specialists however they want.

That's how I thought this was going to work. They wouldn't require much programming, not a whole lot of effect on gameplay if you don't edit them. Only edits available would be defining factors and any specific rules they have to follow.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

It's not really good enough to just say it's triggered by seasonal changes, else the player isn't doing anything.

Seasonal changes WOULD speed the research though. Perhaps not a trigger, but a pseudo-prerequisit?

US_of_Alaska wrote:

Not entirely sense making. I think use of Irrigation Canals would lead to this more appropriately.

Nope. Irrigation canals would inspire, but unless they were using boats alot anyway, they wouldn't reealize "Hey, we can make rivers ourselves and extend our naval routes!"

US_of_Alaska wrote:

How will the game know that you have high literacy rates?

Education, science, that sort of thing.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

I thought i changed alphabet, didn't i?

No, you didn't.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

I guess that's true, but what do we put as an alternate? Mathematics? Trade?

I'd say trade. Isn't that already a prerequisit though?

US_of_Alaska wrote:

I forgot about the leather sails thing. Willfix. So boating unlocks oars and sailing unlocks a rudder thing, right?

Yup. I just realized that the boats had no propulsion when you first unlock them.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

I think a single grinder is better, is it not? That would allow you to connect to an animal or a windmill or whatever the hell you want to.

Well, alright, but the game needs to have the different parts in place, doesn't it?

Tenebrarum wrote:

That's how I thought this was going to work. They wouldn't require much programming, not a whole lot of effect on gameplay if you don't edit them. Only edits available would be defining factors and any specific rules they have to follow.

Make a thread on them. The chances are if i don't know about it, not many other people do. Also it needs more discussion because i have no idea what castes would achieve with the current model.

Tenebrarum wrote:

Seasonal changes WOULD speed the research though. Perhaps not a trigger, but a pseudo-prerequisit?

But then that would severely restrict species unfortunate enough to evolve on a non-tilted planet. Why can't they calculate year length via the stars?

Tenebrarum wrote:

Nope. Irrigation canals would inspire, but unless they were using boats alot anyway, they wouldn't reealize "Hey, we can make rivers ourselves and extend our naval routes!"

Canal Systems unlocks an Aqueduct TO, which isn't really for naval routes...

Tenebrarum wrote:

Education, science, that sort of thing.

No. I need an actual measurable thing in regards to the game that we can figure out literacy from.

Tenebrarum wrote:

No, you didn't.?

I did edit the post.

Tenebrarum wrote:

I'd say trade. Isn't that already a prerequisit though?

Apparently not. It probably should be. I think that it may have been a requisite for mathematics at one stage, but someone convinced me to change it.

Tenebrarum wrote:

Yup. I just realized that the boats had no propulsion when you first unlock them.

*cough* Yeah...

Tenebrarum wrote:

Well, alright, but the game needs to have the different parts in place, doesn't it?

I think you were thinking more TO than FP with your suggestions.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

Make a thread on them. The chances are if i don't know about it, not many other people do. Also it needs more discussion because i have no idea what castes would achieve with the current model.

As you wish.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

But then that would severely restrict species unfortunate enough to evolve on a non-tilted planet. Why can't they calculate year length via the stars?

They CAN have the research without seasonal change, it just takes slightly longer.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

Canal Systems unlocks an Aqueduct TO, which isn't really for naval routes...

Switch the name to... Plumbing maybe?

US_of_Alaska wrote:

No. I need an actual measurable thing in regards to the game that we can figure out literacy from.

Research output. That's the phrase I'm looking for. Also, likelyhood that people will become research specialists on their own. (I believe that's how this will work? You can encourage but only certain researches will allow you absolute control?)

US_of_Alaska wrote:

I did edit the post.

Um... Okay...

US_of_Alaska wrote:

Apparently not. It probably should be. I think that it may have been a requisite for mathematics at one stage, but someone convinced me to change it.

Currency needs trade. Period.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

I think you were thinking more TO than FP with your suggestions.

My mistake. I did mean FPs.

Also, would you mind filling this out with the rest of the Civ IV researches, just so we have a jumping off point?

Tenebrarum wrote:

They CAN have the research without seasonal change, it just takes slightly longer.

That's reasonable.

Tenebrarum wrote:

Switch the name to... Plumbing maybe?

But it's not plumbing. Plumbing is pipes. This is water transport.

Tenebrarum wrote:

Research output. That's the phrase I'm looking for. Also, likelyhood that people will become research specialists on their own. (I believe that's how this will work? You can encourage but only certain researches will allow you absolute control?)

The research output will automatically be adding points towards the research anyways. Having the trigger be research output will speed it up a lot.

Tenebrarum wrote:

Currency needs trade. Period..

True. I have fixed for the next version.

Tenebrarum wrote:

My mistake. I did mean FPs.

Well then i don't think your suggestions were quite fitting. They were more TOs than FPs. Does that make sense?

Tenebrarum wrote:

Also, would you mind filling this out with the rest of the Civ IV researches, just so we have a jumping off point?

I'm trying. It requires a free whole hour to do anything worthwhile, and that's on top of the time i take to read and reply to all the new posts here on the forums.

printing is the main cause for litteracy to rise, it's not a condition for it to exist.

New version is up! I've done a LOT more researches. All the way up to Communism, in fact! Feedback is needed on all of these new items as well as cotinuing conversation on previous problems.

@eumesmo: pose a solution or alternate or don't criticize.

Fermentation: You might want to give it a different name, since not all species might treat alcohol the same, being poisonous for some and doing absolutely nothing for others. Maybe Natural drugs (horrible name, but I don't know anything else. Also, some primitive tribes used drugs from plants).

Military training: Add creation of squads.

Must Mounted Projectile-Weaponry really have it's own research? It could just be a level of Animal Riding.

Feudalism: Why would the gatherers would only be forced for food? They would have to do anything their owners wanted them to.

Education: Replace "Place of Learning" with schools. It's way easier to understand.

Optics: For hearing, alternative could be a hearing aid tech. Don't know for others though.

Gunpowder: Rename to "Explosive materials".

Physics: Allow it to lower the penalty for researching high levels for technologies.

Photography: For touch sensing, the machine could add different amount of some matterial to different amount of the "photography", essentialy creating a relief.

Military Tradition: Was on Earth far earlier than firearms.

Semi-Automatic Weapons: Prerequisites should be Explosives and Scientific Method, output should be allowing all firearm FPs higher rate of fire and introducing Magazine FP.

Artillery: Should be renamed to Heavy Firearms (artillery was present long ago), output should allow all firearm FPs to be much bigger.

Radio: Add Radar FP.