Extended Research List

Commander Keen wrote:

Fermentation: You might want to give it a different name, since not all species might treat alcohol the same, being poisonous for some and doing absolutely nothing for others. Maybe Natural drugs (horrible name, but I don't know anything else. Also, some primitive tribes used drugs from plants).

No, i know where you're going. It's a good idea. I'll update it with that name and hopefully someone will propose a better one. I'll also make it reveal all organisms that have an adverse effect on your species (drugs) labelled as such.

Commander Keen wrote:

Military training: Add creation of squads.

Okay, deal.

Commander Keen wrote:

Must Mounted Projectile-Weaponry really have it's own research? It could just be a level of Animal Riding.

I haven't mentioned levels in any of the researches because i think that the number of researches is enough without levels. Can you imagine if i had to put even two levels on each research?

Commander Keen wrote:

Feudalism: Why would the gatherers would only be forced for food? They would have to do anything their owners wanted them to.

SO change to forced Gatherers, then? I can fly with that.

Commander Keen wrote:

Education: Replace "Place of Learning" with schools. It's way easier to understand.

But it is not a school. It could be a University or College or Apprenticeship Education Facility.

Commander Keen wrote:

Optics: For hearing, alternative could be a hearing aid tech. Don't know for others though.

Like an ear trumpet? Sorry for the comedic effect, but i think that that would actually work well for hearing-dominant species. ANd if there's a species that don't have strong sight or sound sense, i think they're a bit of a lost cause.

Commander Keen wrote:

Gunpowder: Rename to "Explosive materials".

The thing is that that could easily be confused with Explosives later on.

Commander Keen wrote:

Physics: Allow it to lower the penalty for researching high levels for technologies.

Again with the levels?

Commander Keen wrote:

Photography: For touch sensing, the machine could add different amount of some matterial to different amount of the "photography", essentialy creating a relief.

Good idea, and i think we just keep the name Photography for this, since the functions are the same just a different product.

Commander Keen wrote:

Military Tradition: Was on Earth far earlier than firearms.

I know, i know. Should i change it to Military Science, then?

Commander Keen wrote:

Semi-Automatic Weapons: Prerequisites should be Explosives and Scientific Method, output should be allowing all firearm FPs higher rate of fire and introducing Magazine FP.

You can't have semi-auto without rifling. But i can agree with you on the effect. But when do rotating chain guns like the machinegun come into play now? Hang on. Are magazines semi-automatic or automatic?

Commander Keen wrote:

Artillery: Should be renamed to Heavy Firearms (artillery was present long ago), output should allow all firearm FPs to be much bigger.

Deal and deal.

Commander Keen wrote:

Radio: Add Radar FP.

I think that's another research somewhere down the track.

Commander Keen wrote:

Feudalism: Why would the gatherers would only be forced for food? They would have to do anything their owners wanted them to.

This has been bothering me for a while. Serfs are not slaves. They are not owned. Feudalism itself was a term invented in the 1700s. ALL cultures are agrarian at that time and ALL had a type of lord who gave the land to farmers who worked it. It was contractual. They could leave if they wanted to. They did leave! ALL THE TIME. Our current understanding is ENTIRELY a construct of the rennaisance, an actual movement which attempted to erase all history between 500 and 1500. The demonized the culture to support their own philosophy!

Sorry about that. It just pisses me off to no end to see propaganda five centuries old still prevailing actual study. If we're changing the name to forced gathering, I'm cool. *Blushes*

Alaska, I just wanted to thank you for adding the new researches. You've worked your but off on this. *Hugs*

Will post with actual constructive points soon.

EDIT: Most everything here is good.

Railroad should allow TOs to be marked as self-propelled vehicles.

Corperations deserve their own thread. Very complex subject.

Representation seems a little arbitrary. Democratically elected leaders are a centuries old concept.

Semi-Automatic Weapons unlocks the turret gun TO. What would this do, as opposed to hand-held firearms? Would this be any different than say, a hand-cannon or a scorpian?

Photography should require electricity, shouldn't it? (The camara flash)

Electricity should unlock a number of TOs/FPs, like lights, maybe electric motors. They might need other researches though.

Architecture should be triggered by having large TOs marked as structures.

Presumably, armour would unlock very early in a padded form, or hardened leather. There aren't any good places to put these.

Tenebrarum wrote:

This has been bothering me for a while. Serfs are not slaves. They are not owned. Feudalism itself was a term invented in the 1700s. ALL cultures are agrarian at that time and ALL had a type of lord who gave the land to farmers who worked it. It was contractual. They could leave if they wanted to. They did leave! ALL THE TIME. Our current understanding is ENTIRELY a construct of the rennaisance, an actual movement which attempted to erase all history between 500 and 1500. The demonized the culture to support their own philosophy!

Sorry about that. It just pisses me off to no end to see propaganda five centuries old still prevailing actual study. If we're changing the name to forced gathering, I'm cool. *Blushes*

"The word "serf" originated from the Middle French "serf", and can be traced further back to the Latin servus, meaning 'slave'." Would you prefer that we use the term Serfdom for the research? Because by definition a serf is an unfree peasant.

Tenebrarum wrote:

Alaska, I just wanted to thank you for adding the new researches. You've worked your but off on this. *Hugs*

Good feedback is always warmly welcomed. Thank you, Rex.

Tenebrarum wrote:

Railroad should allow TOs to be marked as self-propelled vehicles.

I don't think this is really necessary, as Horse and Carts are self-propelled, since the horse is included in the Tech Object.

Tenebrarum wrote:

Corperations deserve their own thread. Very complex subject.

Will do.

Tenebrarum wrote:

Representation seems a little arbitrary. Democratically elected leaders are a centuries old concept.

Well i can't very well say Modern Democracy. What do you suggest?

Tenebrarum wrote:

Semi-Automatic Weapons unlocks the turret gun TO. What would this do, as opposed to hand-held firearms? Would this be any different than say, a hand-cannon or a scorpian?

Ignore this. Its changed for the next update. See Keen's ideas.

Tenebrarum wrote:

Photography should require electricity, shouldn't it? (The camara flash)

That was originally done with light-producing chemicals.

Tenebrarum wrote:

Electricity should unlock a number of TOs/FPs, like lights, maybe electric motors. They might need other researches though.

I tried to restrict this, because i feared that it would become a monster research that unlocks everything. Lights was the one i was most reluctant about. I mean, that's represented in the +production with electricity, but the aesthetic side of needing to see the lights in buildings and other TOs as well as lighting up the streets needs addressing somehow.

Tenebrarum wrote:

Architecture should be triggered by having large TOs marked as structures.

Alongside the triggers already given?

Tenebrarum wrote:

Presumably, armour would unlock very early in a padded form, or hardened leather. There aren't any good places to put these.

It's presumable... But i cannot find any examples of when use of this started. Maybe we need to just logically assume that it comes with Hunting Tools?

US_of_Alaska wrote:

Commander Keen wrote:

Must Mounted Projectile-Weaponry really have it's own research? It could just be a level of Animal Riding.

I haven't mentioned levels in any of the researches because i think that the number of researches is enough without levels. Can you imagine if i had to put even two levels on each research?

I agree that levels should not be present on the research tree, just the ability to make cavalry should be unlocked by leveling up Animal Breeding and weapon researches.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

Commander Keen wrote:

Education: Replace "Place of Learning" with schools. It's way easier to understand.

But it is not a school. It could be a University or College or Apprenticeship Education Facility.

Oh, school does not mean all these in English? Well, then just leave it like it is until someone comes with something better.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

Commander Keen wrote:

Gunpowder: Rename to "Explosive materials".

The thing is that that could easily be confused with Explosives later on.

That means Explosives have to be renamed too. Let me think a bit... um... nothing for now. Still, there needs to be a better name.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

Commander Keen wrote:

Physics: Allow it to lower the penalty for researching high levels for technologies.

Again with the levels?

It's a single research that lessens the cost-increase cost penalty for high levels.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

Commander Keen wrote:

Military Tradition: Was on Earth far earlier than firearms.

I know, i know. Should i change it to Military Science, then?

Sounds better.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

Commander Keen wrote:

Semi-Automatic Weapons: Prerequisites should be Explosives and Scientific Method, output should be allowing all firearm FPs higher rate of fire and introducing Magazine FP.

You can't have semi-auto without rifling. But i can agree with you on the effect. But when do rotating chain guns like the machinegun come into play now? Hang on. Are magazines semi-automatic or automatic?

You CAN have both semi-auto and full auto fire without rifling. But it's way harder, so Rilfing is a good prerequisite. Magazines are both for semi-auto and full auto, but it took them a while to appear after semi-auto weapons. Full auto should appear way later, either with introduction of belts or gattlings.

Commander Keen wrote:

Radio: Add Radar FP.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

I think that's another research somewhere down the track.

It appeared relatively fast after radio, so it should be either easy to research or just part of Radio.

Quote :

This has been bothering me for a while. Serfs are not slaves. They are not owned. Feudalism itself was a term invented in the 1700s. ALL cultures are agrarian at that time and ALL had a type of lord who gave the land to farmers who worked it. It was contractual. They could leave if they wanted to. They did leave! ALL THE TIME. Our current understanding is ENTIRELY a construct of the rennaisance, an actual movement which attempted to erase all history between 500 and 1500. The demonized the culture to support their own philosophy!

I KNOW. (You already told me on Sven's forum, remember? ). It's just that to get food, serfs may not harvest actual food, but some valuable materials. There may a group of people with very effective form of food gathering, giving them huge overflow and makes them trade foods for valuables. Feudals collect these valubles from serfs and exchange with the guild for food.

Oh, and sorry about my selection of words. I usually post with translator open, but I did not have enough time for it yesterday.

Quote :

Alaska, I just wanted to thank you for adding the new researches. You've worked your but off on this. *Hugs*

THIS. EXACTLY THIS. You have used many free hours just to make and maintain a research list this huge. I thank you many, many times for this.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

"The word "serf" originated from the Middle French "serf", and can be traced further back to the Latin servus, meaning 'slave'." Would you prefer that we use the term Serfdom for the research? Because by definition a serf is an unfree peasant.

That's cool, as is forced gatherers. I was just ranting. You can ignore it.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

I don't think this is really necessary, as Horse and Carts are self-propelled, since the horse is included in the Tech Object.

True, but the Organisms would still have to be controlled indirectly. It doesn't really matter, if it acts weird early on, we can change it.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

Well i can't very well say Modern Democracy. What do you suggest?

I don't see any researches attached to it, maybe remove it?

Alternatively, just have Democracy unlock the elected option, and have Representation reduce the inefficiencies caused by that system early on.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

I tried to restrict this, because i feared that it would become a monster research that unlocks everything. Lights was the one i was most reluctant about. I mean, that's represented in the +production with electricity, but the aesthetic side of needing to see the lights in buildings and other TOs as well as lighting up the streets needs addressing somehow.

Perhaps this could be a multi-part research, like the way you set up metal-working to be.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

Alongside the triggers already given?

I don't see any triggers in the current list. Perhaps you updated after you posted the last one?

US_of_Alaska wrote:

It's presumable... But i cannot find any examples of when use of this started. Maybe we need to just logically assume that it comes with Hunting Tools?

Looking at it I'd say that hunting tools should allow padded, and projectiles should allow hardened leather. Also, I assume that sheilds would require no FP, right?

Tenebrarum wrote:

That's cool, as is forced gatherers. I was just ranting. You can ignore it.

I think Serfdom sounds better. Will change to Serfdom.

Tenebrarum wrote:

True, but the Organisms would still have to be controlled indirectly. It doesn't really matter, if it acts weird early on, we can change it.

Yeah, it depends on how the editor is technically set up.

Tenebrarum wrote:

I don't see any researches attached to it, maybe remove it?

Alternatively, just have Democracy unlock the elected option, and have Representation reduce the inefficiencies caused by that system early on.

I like the second option better. It's a fairly important leap here, because it allowed larger groups to use it. We need to come up with a specific effect, though... +Happiness from this option? Else we can make this option less desirable prior to this research by adding disorder with large empires?

Tenebrarum wrote:

Perhaps this could be a multi-part research, like the way you set up metal-working to be.

Okay, good idea. I'll do some research and expand it.

Tenebrarum wrote:

I don't see any triggers in the current list. Perhaps you updated after you posted the last one?

Whoops. Was thinking of a different research.

Tenebrarum wrote:

Looking at it I'd say that hunting tools should allow padded, and projectiles should allow hardened leather. Also, I assume that sheilds would require no FP, right?

The thing is that projectile weapons doesn't directly relate to hardened leather. Maybe Animal Husbandry? Or make it available alongside metal working? It'd be a little obsolete, but cheaper to manufacture.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

I think Serfdom sounds better. Will change to Serfdom.

M'Kay

US_of_Alaska wrote:

I like the second option better. It's a fairly important leap here, because it allowed larger groups to use it. We need to come up with a specific effect, though... +Happiness from this option? Else we can make this option less desirable prior to this research by adding disorder with large empires?

I'd say the latter. Perhaps decrease in order would be good for early on.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

Whoops. Was thinking of a different research.

Kay, so willfix?

US_of_Alaska wrote:

The thing is that projectile weapons doesn't directly relate to hardened leather. Maybe Animal Husbandry? Or make it available alongside metal working? It'd be a little obsolete, but cheaper to manufacture.

Animal Husbandry sounds good. That'd be when it becomes cost-effective.

Tenebrarum wrote:

I'd say the latter. Perhaps decrease in order would be good for early on.

Will add.

Tenebrarum wrote:

Kay, so willfix?

Already have.

Tenebrarum wrote:

Animal Husbandry sounds good. That'd be when it becomes cost-effective.

Deal. Willadd.

EDIT: Also, not having much luck on the electricity front. I think i need to just add a light FP in the Electricity Research and attach a +production bonus to it. And any TO with an Assembly Line FP can get a big production bonus.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

EDIT: Also, not having much luck on the electricity front. I think i need to just add a light FP in the Electricity Research and attach a +production bonus to it. And any TO with an Assembly Line FP can get a big production bonus.

Not sure what you mean.

Tenebrarum wrote:

US_of_Alaska wrote:

EDIT: Also, not having much luck on the electricity front. I think i need to just add a light FP in the Electricity Research and attach a +production bonus to it. And any TO with an Assembly Line FP can get a big production bonus.

Not sure what you mean.

The Light Function Part will add a small production bonus to buildings with Electricity. So, if you have a factory or forge or foundry or whatever that adds production to your SC, w it'll add more production with Light FPs (to show that it can work at night as well). And if the player has also discovered Assembly Line, then factories with the Assembly Line FP will get a major production boost. Make sense now?

US_of_Alaska wrote:

Tenebrarum wrote:

US_of_Alaska wrote:

EDIT: Also, not having much luck on the electricity front. I think i need to just add a light FP in the Electricity Research and attach a +production bonus to it. And any TO with an Assembly Line FP can get a big production bonus.

Not sure what you mean.

The Light Function Part will add a small production bonus to buildings with Electricity. So, if you have a factory or forge or foundry or whatever that adds production to your SC, w it'll add more production with Light FPs (to show that it can work at night as well). And if the player has also discovered Assembly Line, then factories with the Assembly Line FP will get a major production boost. Make sense now?

I suppose, perhaps it would increase any latent effects caused by buildings.

Also, the more electric lights, the more orgs. of yours you see up and about at night.

All of this is dependant on whether or not their diurnal though.

Tenebrarum wrote:

US_of_Alaska wrote:

Tenebrarum wrote:

US_of_Alaska wrote:

EDIT: Also, not having much luck on the electricity front. I think i need to just add a light FP in the Electricity Research and attach a +production bonus to it. And any TO with an Assembly Line FP can get a big production bonus.

Not sure what you mean.

The Light Function Part will add a small production bonus to buildings with Electricity. So, if you have a factory or forge or foundry or whatever that adds production to your SC, w it'll add more production with Light FPs (to show that it can work at night as well). And if the player has also discovered Assembly Line, then factories with the Assembly Line FP will get a major production boost. Make sense now?

I suppose, perhaps it would increase any latent effects caused by buildings.

Also, the more electric lights, the more orgs. of yours you see up and about at night.

All of this is dependant on whether or not their diurnal though.

True. A nocturnal species could dimply lock themselves in a building and work indefinitely. So no production bonus for lights if the species is nocturnal.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

True. A nocturnal species could dimply lock themselves in a building and work indefinitely. So no production bonus for lights if the species is nocturnal.

However, that means they must have this production bonus from the beggining.

Printing is triggered by use of paper,writing and mechanics (i dunno the exant research name to fit here) and causes a increase in litteracy rates




@Alaska: stop acting like that will ya

eumesmo wrote:

Printing is triggered by use of paper,writing and mechanics (i dunno the exant research name to fit here) and causes a increase in litteracy rates

But what those "litteracy rates" do in the game? Is it a bonus to production? Or happiness?

eumesmo wrote:

@Alaska: stop acting like that will ya

Not to range with Alaska, but he made this entire research tree and is still maintaining it. It took him many hours of his free time. You want him to stop that?

Commander Keen wrote:

US_of_Alaska wrote:

True. A nocturnal species could dimply lock themselves in a building and work indefinitely. So no production bonus for lights if the species is nocturnal.

However, that means they must have this production bonus from the beggining.

Any buildings with no way for light to enter should receive this bonus.

@eumesmo: May i ask what you're wanting me to stop in regards to this thread?

Why would nocturnal species work indefinitely with no light? They still need sleep, even though they can see in the dark...

eumesmo wrote:

@Alaska: stop acting like that will ya

I honesly have nothing to say, other than a foolish "lolwut?". He's being perfectly normal, and saying things like that is just rude.

Sorry, went off-topic.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

Any buildings with no way for light to enter should receive this bonus.

Alright, so.... What's the downside?

Nocturnal creatures have increased difficulty seeing in color, but that's not really a downside, though frustrating for the player.

I suppose the biggie here is that, while you can turn on a light to illuminate darkness, you can't turn off the sun. The concept of 'Night Life' (Or day life in this case) would be alien to them and so pretty much all events would HAVE to take place at night or inside, lest they suffer a decrease in AI, or whatever we descide to represent the loss of visibility and extreme discomfort.

Tenebrarum wrote:

US_of_Alaska wrote:

Any buildings with no way for light to enter should receive this bonus.

Alright, so.... What's the downside?

Nocturnal creatures have increased difficulty seeing in color, but that's not really a downside, though frustrating for the player.

I suppose the biggie here is that, while you can turn on a light to illuminate darkness, you can't turn off the sun. The concept of 'Night Life' (Or day life in this case) would be alien to them and so pretty much all events would HAVE to take place at night or inside, lest they suffer a decrease in AI, or whatever we descide to represent the loss of visibility and extreme discomfort.

Obviously the downside is that they can't go outside in the day. They're vampires, basically. And this would mean that TOs get a production bonus, but trade takes longer and doesn't produce wealth as quickly (as they can't travel during the day).

US_of_Alaska wrote:

[They're vampires, basically. And this would mean that TOs get a production bonus, but trade takes longer and doesn't produce wealth as quickly (as they can't travel during the day).

Daytime traders usually don't travel in the night as well.

Commander Keen wrote:

US_of_Alaska wrote:

[They're vampires, basically. And this would mean that TOs get a production bonus, but trade takes longer and doesn't produce wealth as quickly (as they can't travel during the day).

Daytime traders usually don't travel in the night as well.

Now they can, thanks to trucks w/electirc lights. The point here is that nocturnals would get the bonuses earlier, but would NEVER get the full effect.

in a previous idea that Tenebrarum had he stated:

Tenebrarum wrote:

Printing is triggered by use of paper and high litteracy rates

since that didnt made much sense to me i said that

eumesmo wrote:

printing is the main cause for litteracy to rise, it's not a condition for it to exist.

i was refering to something that made little sense when put in that way, so i posted my opinion. What alaska answered was:

US of Alaska wrote:

@eumesmo: pose a solution or alternate or don't criticize.

since the forum is free for you to give your own opinions about issues you think are not right i thought to be in my right to say that. aparently i wasnt *sarcasm*

my previous pos is the sugestion for the litteracy so that i can criticize. basically is transforming what i said before into a research. Since nobody asked before how you'd mesure litteracy i felt it wasnt needed to do so, but it is in mine opinion a percentual value which is influenced by things like Printing, schools, freedom of speech and mass media.

When i said alaska to stop acting like that i was refering to the coment quoted above. I think the tech tree is looking awesome both in concept and in structure and i have nothing against it. I said alaska to stop making those kinds of coments. i was stating an opinion about a research, in the effort to improve the tree accouracy.
I dont want a flame war, ok

eumesmo wrote:

in a previous idea that Tenebrarum had he stated:

Tenebrarum wrote:

Printing is triggered by use of paper and high litteracy rates

since that didnt made much sense to me i said that

eumesmo wrote:

printing is the main cause for litteracy to rise, it's not a condition for it to exist.

i was refering to something that made little sense when put in that way, so i posted my opinion. What alaska answered was:

US of Alaska wrote:

@eumesmo: pose a solution or alternate or don't criticize.

since the forum is free for you to give your own opinions about issues you think are not right i thought to be in my right to say that. aparently i wasnt *sarcasm*

my previous pos is the sugestion for the litteracy so that i can criticize. basically is transforming what i said before into a research. Since nobody asked before how you'd mesure litteracy i felt it wasnt needed to do so, but it is in mine opinion a percentual value which is influenced by things like Printing, schools, freedom of speech and mass media.

When i said alaska to stop acting like that i was refering to the coment quoted above. I think the tech tree is looking awesome both in concept and in structure and i have nothing against it. I said alaska to stop making those kinds of coments. i was stating an opinion about a research, in the effort to improve the tree accouracy.
I dont want a flame war, ok

Criticism is just the start of flames if you don't pose a solution. Saying what you think is fine, as long as you pose an idea on how it could be improved. I have said the same thing to Rex many times, eumesmo, i'm sorry if i ever made it feel like i am picking on you.

I am saying that i cannot change something without something to change it to. Your comment would have been fine, good even, if it had have been followed by "You should remove this requirement" or "You should change it to this (change)".

Do you understand? It's good to disagree. It makes progress. But if we just say "That's Belgium.", then we don't.

indeed, lets forget this.

So, is it ok, if paper and some kind of mechanical working is required to have printing and it increases litteracy?
in a later stage there i think should be a mass printing research, bieng one of the requesits printing. Mass printing would not onlyy give a bigger boost in litteracy, but it would allow for newspapers, and all of the cultural advancements that it brings, since it is a way to spread ideas to a broad public


previously: book ; time to make-3 years, cost a fortune
after printing; book: time to make -weeks, cost: 5%
after mass printing: book: time to make - days; hours; cost:quite cheap

eumesmo wrote:

indeed, lets forget this.

So, is it ok, if paper and some kind of mechanical working is required to have printing and it increases litteracy?
in a later stage there i think should be a mass printing research, bieng one of the requesits printing. Mass printing would not onlyy give a bigger boost in litteracy, but it would allow for newspapers, and all of the cultural advancements that it brings, since it is a way to spread ideas to a broad public


previously: book ; time to make-3 years, cost a fortune
after printing; book: time to make -weeks, cost: 5%
after mass printing: book: time to make - days; hours; cost:quite cheap

Hmm... So how do we show this bonus in book-making? Obviously we can populate interiors with more book decorations, but i mean it in a gameplay sense. Obviously we will increase literacy, but how do we represent the other cultural advancements you speak of? A boost in happiness is probably a good start. What else would happen?